What if? The Removal of the Pixie Pipe Dust

[ssjones]

But all of the pipes that went out all met the same high standards that Bill put in place on day one. So when you got an Ashton, whether it was made, finished etc. by Bill, Jimmy or any of the other makers he had, you still got a great pipe.

Hmm, maybe. The running joke on Ashton pipes has been you wanted one that Bill made before lunch, when he was known to imbibe a bit. I've seen some pretty wonky Taylor Ashton's over the years (and indeed own one). I still love them, which really doesn't make a lot of sense..
Bill had two associates early on, Frank Lincoln and Sid Cooper. Copied from an RD Field article:

The first bowl-turner was Frank Lincoln, also ex-Dunhill and a wonderful man. Frank’s specialty was hand-turning on a lathe which he did for Ashton until health problems caught up with him. He died in 1991. The present bowl-turner is one Sid Cooper, all of seventy-eight (he looks fifty-four). Sid started at the original Hardcastle Pipe Co. (not Parker-Hardcastle, mind) in 1938, and he is a genius at setting up machinery in order to make one-off shapes. He also knows more stories of the English pipe trade than anyone I have ever met.

 

[Chasing Embers]

@ newbroom

You mean Milli Vanilli did not sing those songs? :rofl:

Heard Blame it on "Duane" millions of times in Junior High. Hate that song. :x

 

[lestrout]

Dave Fields and Jan were members of Morley's before they moved to NewMex several years ago. I went to their farewell yard sale and picked up some interesting pipe related ties, a fine almost new Harris tweed (now my winter smoking jacket) and a pair of classic LLBean rubber boots (for one dollar!), which is great when I help the clubs stock the streams with trouts. Dave has an encyclopedic knowledge of pipes, famously Dunhills and other classic English briar. I'm still old fashioned, so an encyclopedic knowledge means more to me than a wikipediac knowledge.
I got the Richmond 30th CORPS pipe, a beautiful Prince made by Jimmy Craig, and it is a fine, fine instrument, comparable to the Ashton (/Craig?) bulldog that I got a few years ago.
hp

les
BTW - I was puzzled by the aggressive turn this thread took when there was an attempt to inject a logical structure to a very interesting and worthy question that Cosmo raised. Then I looked at the calendar, noting that the full moon is upon us. I've also noticed that late night reactions often get a bit temperamental, which I've always attributed to the third Scotch or 4th beer - not that there's anything wrong with that. And it has been a long and hard winter for many of us.

 

[raevans]

He did indeed have a few very "unique" shapes that came out of the shop. I remember getting a couple in at JBH in the early two thousand time frame. They looked like they were made well after "two o clock tea time". They both sold almost as fast as they were put out on display. A few years later, I ran into the guy who bought one of the pipes while I was at the CORPS show. He still had the pipe and he said that it was still a great smoker.

 

[menuhin]

I know this thread titled "What if?" and the discussion is mostly around artisan pipe makers, but I also came to realize that was also possible for the case of many pipe brands at least in the past. For example, as stated in a previous thread, a pipe has to be really made in england if it was stamped "made in england" and there were lawsuits associated with trying to get away from selling French pipe bowls as "Made in England" pipes.
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/french-pipes/page/2#post-653799
Modern equivalence would be the redundant "Danish Design" of Stanwell pipes - at least it is honest in implying production not in Denmark.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I have heard speculations, rumorizations, and accusations directed at Dunhills being made by Savinelli for years before I bought my Dunnie, so I wouldn't be heart broken if the beans spilled and we found out that without a doubt they weren't made in England by the Dunhill guys. I just wanted to compare the way the Dunhill smokes to my other pipes. Eh, I didn't run out and buy a bunch more, if that answers that question. But, I wonder if it would matter to anyone else if it turned out that their Dunhill was a very good Savinelli? What about Castellos or any of the other pipe manufacturers? Do factory made pipes carry a pixie dust? So to speak?

 

[daimyo]

I may be mistaken but transposing a name or trademarked brand is not the same as lying about country of origin. If something is stamped "made in England" and is in fact completely made in Italy I believe you are violating laws and trade agreements. Otherwise Peterson would likely have kept the Ireland stamp. Sourcing materials and completing an items manufacture is not the same of course and most things made in any place contain materials from other countries. Many "made in America" products have parts or pieces that were completed in another country. Each country and even states, I believe have laws about how much of a products manufacture must be done in country before you can claim "made in ...." I know the "Made in Alaska" standards are fairly rigid.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I can't say for sure, but if it is stamped "made in England" and was made somewhere else, I don't know what laws would clearly be violated. Maybe some consumer law, but trademark, copyright, and consumer laws are not enforceable by police. These are laws that can only be enforced by lawsuits, and you'd have to have absolute proof to enforce them. Big names like Disney and record labels have the funds to enforce these things. But, who would have that kind of money and could show damages by a company misleading us by the "made in..." stamp or label? The police couldn't enforce things like this, unless animal parts were somehow involved. That is my experience with importing. Regulating finished product is buyer beware here in the US.

 

[daimyo]

In America it would violate section 304 of the Tarif act regardless of what people in England or Italy thought. I know this because I was an international production manages. They don't send the police, they send the lawyers. The Lanham Act gives any person who is damaged by a false designation of origin the right to sue the party making the false claim. Some companies might be hard to sue but Dunhill would not. While knock of companies may lie about country of origin, those of us who produced goods for legitimate companies in first world countries pay very close attention to such details.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Who sends the lawyers, or pays them? Usually there has to be someone directly affected. Many of these business laws are just on the books, till someone can pay to enforce them, but, I'm no lawyer.

 

[daimyo]

I amended to add that info, your competitors do. And yes, they can be easily damaged by false claims of origin as people pay a premium for certain countries work over others. Hand sewn in Italy fetches much more than slave labor in India, or at least it did in my production world. Would Missouri Meerschaum be damaged if Chinese cobs could be labeled "made in America"? That's why most goods made in places such as China are properly labeled as such, if they could cheat and get away with it they would. Customs brokers and Customs themselves also help police these laws. That would be a much greater benefit than stamping England over Italy.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Well, this is all hypothetical. Maybe they were stained and polished in England... Do these factory pipes have enough pixie dust to make a difference to the market? Would it piss you off?

 

[raevans]

If the bowls are being turned in Italy or France, (I've also heard that BC was prepping some of the bowls for Dunhill as well), but that was all that was being done. Then the bowls are sent to Dunhill for their makers to finish the bowl, cut and fit the stems ad complete the pipe. Would Dunhill then be able to say that the pipe was made in England? Wouldn't they be able to claim that the briar was "roughly" shaped in preparation, but that the main work was completed at the Dunhill factory in England and that's where the briar actually became a pipe?

 

[daimyo]

Raevans, they could probably still stamp them "Made in England" if the stummel was fraised elsewhere but I am not nearly as familiar with the laws in the United Kingdom. Cosmic, it would not bother me if a Dunny was fraised (sp) in Italy or France and finished in England. Frankly a machine functions the same in all three countries and I've always thought of Dunhills as factory pipes. Nice factory pipes but none the less. Perhaps in the very early days of the brand it was different but I've only owned modern ones. It seems though that many people claim to have visited the Dunhill factory in England, seems like these rumors should be easier to confirm or deny.

 

[drwatson]

I know my Boswells are made by Dan and Jm..

 

[daimyo]

I heard Boswells were made by little orange men in an old chocolate factory somewhere in England.

 

[edgreen]

I would rather have bought a pipe outsourced by the carver or company than buy an out and out fake, like the 80's Dunhills dropped on the market by the Chinese. Find a reputable dealer or two and stick with 'em. I still think supply and demand will guide prices as they have since the serpent had that apple and names just become part of that ratio.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Don't those fake Dunhills sell for more than the real Dunhills now? ...even with disclosure. Seems like someone mentioned this on here a while back.

 

[georged]

The "fake" Dunhills of the early 80's didn't come from China, and were only technically fake. "Unauthorized" is a better description.
They were made with Dunhill wood, Dunhill tools, and Dunhill workers. Just after hours on the sly, and sold privately.
Their colorful history indeed makes them more valuable to collectors.

 

[saltedplug]

If Ashton farms out some of the work on a pipe under their label, I'm not going to get excited. ~$300.00/pipe for a handmade pipe is cheap, and their quality is always high.

If I pay $1000.00 for a Becker or twice that for an Eltang, yes I would get excited, as am paying for the artistry of a principal in the industry, as well as paying a great deal more money.
I'm not going to repeat this in full or give the name of the site, but suffice it to say that a well-known site attributes Eltang's high production numbers to his extraordinary hand-eye coordination.