What if? The Removal of the Pixie Pipe Dust

[cosmicfolklore]

As debates go sometimes at the B&M, we had a heated discussion about pipe makers concerning Beckers, his passing, and his son. I started it, because I was curious as to why there was a such a surge of Becker pipes on the market after his passing. Was there a reserve of his pipes? Was his son making them? etc... the typical push and pull of conversation. Then came the part that we pipe collectors, smokers, and connoisseurs put so much stock in... the pixie dust of "hands on" pipe making. What if's, and the possible myth of the industry.
Skip asks, "Why does this bother you so much, Cosmic?"

"I'm not bothered, I am just curious."

"Do you like your Beckers?"

"Of course I do. They are great pipes, but for the money..."

"What if I told you that Paulo's health was so bad, that his son had been making his pipes for the last few years? Would you like them less?"
It was like a shovel had hit me in the head. I wasn't expecting that. Would I?...
I look to Skip for all things pipe knowledge related. He has been in the industry as a maker and retailer for over 40 years, maybe 50. And, he has had visits, dinners, and has socialized with all of my pipe heroes. So, I was twisted inside.
"Now Cosmic, I'm not saying that he did make them, and I'm not saying he didn't either :::wink wink::: But, what if Eltang has his pipes made by a well known French pipe company? What is Nordings are all made in a sweat shop in Poland, and he too hasn't touched a pipe in years? What if..."
"No no no, shut up!!" :::fingers in ears::: "La la la la la" I can't hear you. Don't spoil my pixie dust.
But, it set me to thinking. In jewelry, the biggest names all hire designers and have their work reproduced, usually in China, but now a lot of the industry is moving to India. These are the names that most would recognize, like David Yurman, etc... It is very common in all industries, clothes, accessories, etc... But pipes? Can it be?
As a craftsman myself, I know that this is a hot debate. It is possible to make a living at making things by hand, but usually it is barely enough to exist on. The ones that do make more money, do include some method of reproduction or technology. I have been stubborn and held on to the idea that for me to put my name to something that it will have to be all made by my hands, most of the time even cutting my own stones. But, is it really someone's work, and to what extent is it, if they farm out the production. How much of the production can it be and still belong to me? To me there is a balance between demand and how much I can really make to meet demand. If I can step up production to meet a greater part of the demand, can I still call it handmade by me?
So, I love my Beckers. I love my Eltangs. I love my Nordings, Dunhills, on and on... But, what if? Does that make them less enjoyable? Less valuable? Did I get ripped off, duped into paying more than I should have? Does it matter?

Set aside whether this is all true or not. I could care less if you actually sat in Becker's shop and watched him carve each and every pipe (for this discussion; in reality that would be very cool). But, I am curious to know whether you would still enjoy the artisan made pipes that you value most if you found out that the maker never even touched the pipe?

Discuss...

 

[jkrug]

I should start out by saying I don't own any artisan pipes but I do have a bit of an opinion on the topic.
I do think it matters if you are led to believe you are buying a pipe crafted directly by the hands of artist X. I would be very disappointed to find out later that his apprentice or assistant made it instead. I would surely feel mislead and cheated.
If said artist was up front and said demand for this pipe is too great and I can not meet that demand and this pipe will now be made by so and so or at XX pipe factory. I would then have to decide if I was ok with it. At least I could make that decision knowing the truth. Personally at that point I don't feel the pipe would hold the same value to me.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[tuold]

If I were to buy a craftsman grade pipe for a premium price I would want some sort of provenance leading to the carver. If that connection is obviously separated by time and distance the pipe becomes one only"inspired" by the name stamped on it. My friend has a violin with a label inside signed, "Guarneri". It was made in the 1960s, so it's not worth the millions one made hundreds of years would be. I think whoever is supplying those Beckers is being dishonest. They may be fine pipes in their own right, but in my mind, not as advertised. If the retailer knows that and says nothing he is also being dishonest.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I sort of look at the Guarneri example as the same as a Tiffanys. People know that Tiffanys is just a production company now, and no longer the jewelers of the royalty, makers of crowns that it used to be, but people still look for that mark on jewelry. It amazes me sometimes.

What if Ford made all of the parts for the Mercedes, and they are all assembled here in Alabama? What if Kellogs was the exact same product as the store brands? People buy labels. In a way, all retailers lie if they have to disclose everything. Maybe? I'm just throwing it out there for arguments sake.

 

[agnosticpipe]

This is a great question Michael! Personally, I don't have many artisinal pipes. At least I don't think I do. I have a Mauro Armellini, but I don't know how old it is, or whether he himself made it, or one of his family members, etc. When I first started smoking and buying pipes again after about a 10 year break, there was much more information out there about pipes and tobacco via the internet that wasn't available before. I was not familiar with "artisinal pipe makers". The idea that one person would be responsible for making one pipe from start to finish, wasn't something I'd thought about before. I quickly realized that these pipes would be financially out of my reach for the most part, unless I found a great deal on one. I've since bought an Ascorti, who exactly made that? Don't know the age of it so did he or one of his family make it. In both of these cases, it doesn't bother me if the man behind the brand wasn't personally making the pipe. They both smoke great and I didn't spend over $65 on either. Later I bought a couple of Craig Coopers pipes made in 2009. The first I got used, the second had never been smoked. Craig shows both pipes on his site, and I have no doubt that he actually made these, as he seem to be a one man operation. I didn't pay a fortune for them either, and they both smoke great. But in this case, would I be disappointed if I found that he didn't actually make these? Probably, as the idea of something hand made by one person in this case seems more likely and has some appeal. Not sure they would smoke better or worse in my mind, but I just liked the idea that he made these by himself.
This whole train of thought is interesting to think about because as consumers we like to think when we buy a certain thing, and spending maybe more to get something we feel is special, that our expectations will be true. When I was going to school as a teen I felt the need for certain brands of things, so as to be accepted by my peers. Since that time I have no brand loyalty for some reason. I don't care if my shirt says Ralph Lauren, or Sears. ( I actually wish it said made in USA) I care less about what others think of me now, so I buy what I can afford and if it does what I expect it to do I'm happy. My wife thinks I'm too easy to please, but I think she's too picky! I told her she's free to buy me a Rad Davis or Walt Cannoy anytime she wants to... hey, I'm not fussy! ::

 

[cosmicfolklore]

It's one thing if I had a huge bank account and buying a Becker was just another "thing" to me, but for me to buy a Becker or Eltang, it required saving for several months. So, initially, I felt "lied to." I'm not much for caring what others think of me either. I just do what makes me happy. So, I may be more pissed than the guy who can afford to just drop a thousand on this or that. But, on the other hand, why aren't there more pipe makers or companies making riskier shapes like Becker or Eltang. You can't find that uniqueness out there otherwise. At least in some of their shapes. What attracted me initially was how unique the shapes were. So, maybe I would feel lied to initially, but I still have a unique shape that I still enjoy. I would probably like it even better if it was a counterfeit that didn't cost me as much, ha ha. Heck, I'd knowingly buy a fake Becker if it looked as cool and smoked as well as a more expensive Becker. Maybe.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I've made the joke before a couple of times, but maybe it is better to just go ahead and grind the maker's names off the pipes. If the idea of grinding the name off bothers someone, maybe those people smoke these pipes more for what other people think? Maybe.

 

[cobguy]

If the idea of grinding the name off bothers someone, maybe those people smoke these pipes more for what other people think? Maybe.

Damn straight ... my pipes are stamped MM and I want everyone to know they aren't made in china! :D
Pixie dust indeed ... a famous line about someone born every minute comes to mind ... Barnum somebody ...

 

[mso489]

So many imponderables here. It's significantly different for me if an artisan's work is slowly taken over by a son or son-like understudy who actively imitates the master and strives to continue his work, as opposed to turning the work over the a team of faithful employees who have a little less intimate devotion, as opposed to hiring a team of workman who have no particular attachment or loyalty to the "name" pipe carver at all. If it's the son, it depends on his talent. In some cases, having been brought up with the craftsmanship, he could conceivably be as good or better. Or incredibly better, if he's some sort of genius. The plus to good artisans who don't charge lofty prices is that you are paying a fair but moderate price -- for Johs, for your local pipe carver, for Erik Nording who (I think) does high end pipes himself, medium price pipes by proxy and supervision, and some of the best low-end factory pipes in the world. As with some many things, my only problem is with being misled, not with the various arrangements that produce good-to-wonderful tobacco pipes. You pay a lot for pipes with a name associated with high prices, for prestige, for resale. When they live up to their billing, it's a great feeling, a real luxury. When they don't, they don't.

 

[gloucesterman]

When someone "out sources" their manufacturing they are no longer a pipe maker, they are a merchandising company. In the pipe trade that has long been the case. Numerous companies have bought pipes from other companies and had their label stamped on them. I think the break point comes when you are offering your product as hand made, high grades when they are not in fact that at all. They are production pieces from some factory. That in MHO is dishonest. Simply not disclosing that fact is deceitful in its own right. All that said there are rumors out there that suggest many companies have purchased and merchandized stummels by other companies as there own. In the end I guess the deciding factor is really, can a factory made production piece be the equal of the hand made original? If it can be does that dictate it's worth the same money? If it can't then it's bait and switch.

 

[voorhees]

I like the connection to the artist and his craft. I suppose you already know that. Of the three artisan pipes I own, I personally met the carver (Growley) and enjoy the pipe more for its comfortable stem than the pipe itself. I plan on getting another just for that reason alone. The other is Tsuge ikebana and I am not sure if it was carved by Fukuda or not, but I like it too. The Third is a Randy Wiley and it's cool to have one of his.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Nording, who I had the pleasure of backing into a corner last year, admits his pipes are not made in Denmark, and according to his own calendar of travel has not touched a pipe himself in a while. However, this Nording Valhalla 203, which is machine made, with ever 203 exactly the same, down to notches in the rusticated part. This is how he stamps these...



Is this deception? Or, merely a bend on the truth? If he doesn't make his higher end pipes himself, what about that? Bjarne didn't make his own handmade high ends either, but it was also well known that he didn't. So that might have made it more acceptable.
MSO makes a good point though. This was Becker's son. Or, hypothetically (wink wink) his son made them. That might be different, but even I still feel a little let down that Paulo himself may not have made it.
But, yeh, does a retailer have to reveal that every Dunhill is farmed out to Savinelli, and etc...?
Ugg, I don't have any answers. The Eltangs would be the biggest letdown if true. Even with a little attention given to the button, even if he hand inspected each one, there is no factory made pipe that is worth what I had to pay to get that pipe.

But, this is just pipe lounge conjecture. ::

 

[wyfbane]

Well, this case is particularly fun. Sooo aside from the Becker and Musico pipes, was there a clear transition in nomenclature when Fritz was phased out by Paolo? How mad should we be in the estate market if we get a Fritz and not a Paolo?
Moving forward to today. In this instance, I am thinking it not a great deal Paolo's son is making pipes since it is all family. Should they have altered the nomenclature or something? Yes. Is it a disaster if they didn't? I am not sure. If no one NOTICED a change in quality, fit, and finish (and smoking quality) until the bomb was dropped at a b&m then no harm no foul in my book.
Becker family pipes just smoke awesome. Doesn't matter much to me which one of the family made it, if I can't visually discern it for myself.
With other companies and selling out to factories after building a hand made reputation I would agree. In all thing we need to do our research and know when Nording sells out to a big factory, etc. Pipes are just a hotter topic than like clothes because we are passionate about them.

 

[buckaroo]

Was there a reserve of his pipes? Was his son making them? etc..
I've been wondering the same thing for a while now.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Buckaroo, after watching him unpack and immediately ship off dozens of Beckers, coming and going on the same day... and, watching all of the web retailers post and sell just as many, I had to scratch my head also, which kicked off this conversation. Where were all of these pipes at the time of his death? There had to have been hundreds in limbo. And, Skip is getting in even more, which made me start asking who was making these? If his son is cashing in on his father's name... well... that would piss me off?

 

[puffy]

I suppose you could register your name as a brand such as Bayer,or Westinghouse.That way you could have pipes made by anyone with your name on them.The problem here would be if you tried to decieve people into thinking that you made them yourself.

 

[literaryworkshop]

I'm with mso on this one. There's a big difference between a master/apprentice relationship and a brand-name/outsorced-labor relationship, and this is especially true when the apprentice is related to the master. I don't really see it as "cashing in" on somebody else's name, especially since, well... sons tend to have their fathers' last names anyway.
The pipemaking world is one of the very, very few realms left where knowledge is passed on slowly from master to apprentice, with a view to the apprentice eventually becoming a master in his own right. It's an ancient system, and I'd hate to see it disappear entirely.

 

[beastkhk]

I don't have artisan pipes, and am more in the hobby for the tobacco side so don't foresee myself getting into the higher end pipes, but I feel like I have read through threads talking about examples of how one era of brand "X" of pipe isn't as valuable because it was made by this pipe maker instead of sourced to another etc, etc. It sounds like it is/has already been going on in the past and people are just connecting the dots in those instances.
I can't imagine the value of the pipe dropping enough that one would be under water, but I could see down the road a ceiling being reached on the value sooner than if it was made by the artisan him/herself.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Literary, there is still master systems in place for many things. Jewelry is one of them. I am a Master Jeweler. My father gave me the bench test when I was 16, but he never put his name on any of my creations, nor I his. That just never crossed our minds, even back in the heyday of the 70's and 80's, when the boom for gold and nugget styled jewelry was big, and my dad's name was known across the Southeast among jewelry stores for his diamond set nuggets and he had six Johnson Jewelers locations. But, lately the demand for bench tests have dropped and the self-taught indy crowd gets just as much acclaim, as they should. Most mediums have found the master system to be antiquated in this age of shared knowledge. It worked back when there were secrets and guilds.
But, like I said, I agree with MSO to some degree. But, should those pipes made by his son still have gotten $1200+. Was the public that thought that they were getting a Paulo made pipe, like me, deceived? Where are these new Beckers coming from that have recently flooded the market? Can I sell work stamped with my father's hallmark? Valid questions, I think.
Beastnhik, do you mean that buyers of these high end pipes will get a return on their investment, in that collectors will eventually get more or the same amount for their pipes that they paid? The value drops as soon as you pay for it, and smoking it drops it even more. It has been rare in the pipe world for people to actually ever get more than they paid. It happens, but rarely, and on the radioshow, I believe they calculated in inflated value of the dollar to show that you really don't ever get a return on your investment, at least of any real value. You're underwater as soon as the cash register rings. I don't think most collectors buy these types of pipes for profit. Maybe some.

 

[beastkhk]

Oh I don't know that they would see a return in their lifetime, I was thinking farther down the road when these have passed hands on the secondary markets several times and taken that initial loss out already. If it came to light that one of the pipes you had was made by the apprentice and the other by the master, I don't know that the value of the apprentice's pipe would immediately diminish but more be capped at what the market value was at the time. The master's work may still have potential for further value increase as it would be an original and value would increase as scarcity increases.