Then maybe you should go search for a narcissist's forum where everyone has the same notions of courtesy, tolerance, and respect that are just like yours, and you can all sit around and congratulate each other on how brilliant you all are! :roll:
What if? The Removal of the Pixie Pipe Dust
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We all know that the average pipe maker does not dig briar out of the ground and if you talk to those that do harvest briar, they don't call themselves "pipe makers." We all know that the average pipe maker does not manufacture Ebonite, a brand name industrial product. Most Jewelers are not also miners and few have smelting operations. I made knives but owning a steel mill is another story. Therefore these issues are not only unhelpful but border on ridiculous. Cosmic is a well respected member and made a point about an issue he was quite clear on. This discussion was never about the definition of sole authorship, it was about artisan pipes and what the maker should be doing to clarify their business practices. Notice only you were not in step with the discussion. Your statement only served as an attempt to take the discussion off topic and into asinine territory. This is not a reddit subforum where people argue simply for the sake of argument.
Ahh, so this is butt hurt revenge! I've heard of this, ha ha!
Out of your 12 posts on this forum, how many have you contributed in a positive way?
And, I'm so sorry if I have crushed your feelings with my choice of words, but you've apparently not gathered the whole gist of that post. Maybe you are one of the fellows that can't use a pocket knife?
I apologize, forgive me sir.
Out of your 12 posts on this forum, how many have you contributed in a positive way?
And, I'm so sorry if I have crushed your feelings with my choice of words, but you've apparently not gathered the whole gist of that post. Maybe you are one of the fellows that can't use a pocket knife?
I apologize, forgive me sir.
Ahh, as usual my post is after someone has cleared it all up, and I just beat the dead horse. Thanks guys.
Phhhht, and you guys exaggerate. I'm not nearly as respected as I am laughed at. I hope :0). I come here to have fun and talk about the things I love with friends. I'd just hope to get more ha ha's than salutes . No one should take me too seriously. Unless you disagree with my tobacco choices, then we'll fight. :
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Cosmic you just keep on being you please.. I thoroughly enjoy all your threads and posts, and this forum would be much the duller without your participation.
And still, the question goes unanswered.
Which tasks---and what percentage of those tasks---must the stamped/named maker perform with his own hands to avoid having done something "wrong" that customers would find "troubling," "disappointing," "misleading," and "cheated them."
PS -- Monty, I don't think "narcissist" means what you think it means. :lol:
Which tasks---and what percentage of those tasks---must the stamped/named maker perform with his own hands to avoid having done something "wrong" that customers would find "troubling," "disappointing," "misleading," and "cheated them."
It's quite a straightforward question. Really.
PS -- Monty, I don't think "narcissist" means what you think it means. :lol:
Okay, for those who are not getting the point of this thread. Pipemaker "A" takes briar block "B" and stem rod "C" and shapes, drills, and stains a pipe. They then use stamp "D" to imprint their signature, initials, makers mark, etc. on the pipe. Now if pipemaker "E" makes a pipe and uses pipemaker "A's" stamp on the pipe, it truly is not a pipe by pipemaker "A". That is the line being crossed, and the whole point of this thread.
Ha ha, out of this you worry about disappointing a customer? Ha ha ha. I love it! There is so much more that I think you'd need to get down pat before you have to worry about something like this being the disappointment. No, you wanted to piss us off because you got hurt feelings from my choice of words, and I appologoze. Business 101, don't piss on the customers. That one is free, but you've got a ways to go it seems. But, I'm an old guy, with old guy ways. I hope you've had fun!
Some pipemakers use cast stems, some use machines stummels, some do whatever. These are all pipemakers that I wouldn't think to put in categories with Walt or Paulo or Eltang. I'd hope my information is all wrong about all of this in my OP. I do love my Becker's. And, maybe I'll get me one of those Connoys one day. I keep flipping to his website. He's got some beauties on there.
Sometimes it's apparent that an individual just doesn't get it. Lest we all be dragged into that pit maybe it's best to ignore what an individual just can't comprehend and move on. I for one like to be able to share ideas and values without needing to justify my position to the satisfaction of others. And I enjoy becoming familiar with what others think. It expands my horizons. It's not about being right, it's about expanding your understanding and being able to appreciate the view of others. An argument is the last thing I'm looking for. For those bent on that inclination good luck to you. Ignoring them is the best way to discourage that kind of behavior. Who needs hostility? I found this thread enlightening in many ways. If it doesn't do that for some well let them look elsewhere.
Exactly, how can one be right about an opinion, outlook, feeling, or anything as subjective as this hobby? It's all about the friendships we build along the way. I can have learned more from young guys and girls getting into this hobby anew than I have learned from years of experience. It's great to have wise old grey beards and young whippersnappers to teach us all a thing or two. Or, show us a new way to look at a pipe or a tobacco blend that we may have overlooked. I've learned the hard way to never say never. Or, I've learned that I should't say it, ha ha. Sometimes old habits, ha ha. Anyways, I've enjoyed the thought provoking ways you guys have given me to look at all of this.
It's a pipe, a tool, a thing... but, it can mean so much more. Each of us has our own way of looking at these devices, extensions of ourselves.
It's a relationship, a symbiotic phenomena, a part of being human. The relationship between the artist and the viewer. We become a part of the creative process. The drummer and the dancer. The artist and the viewer. The ceramicist and the ritual. A painting can never be a work of art unless its message can be seen and conveyed upon the viewer. If it stays ina closet, it's just a thing. But, when you think that you're dancing to a drummer you admire, like when you are enjoying the aesthetic experience of smoking a Becker and connecting with that one guy, Paulo Becker, and you find out that the drummer or pipemaker is someone else, it changes the experience. Who is playing that drum? Who am I connecting to?
Sorry, I'm just a blabber mouth tonight, waxing poetic with some Astleys 109 in that Becker-ish bent rhodesian of mine. Ha ha.
Keep it smokey folks ::
It's a pipe, a tool, a thing... but, it can mean so much more. Each of us has our own way of looking at these devices, extensions of ourselves.
It's a relationship, a symbiotic phenomena, a part of being human. The relationship between the artist and the viewer. We become a part of the creative process. The drummer and the dancer. The artist and the viewer. The ceramicist and the ritual. A painting can never be a work of art unless its message can be seen and conveyed upon the viewer. If it stays ina closet, it's just a thing. But, when you think that you're dancing to a drummer you admire, like when you are enjoying the aesthetic experience of smoking a Becker and connecting with that one guy, Paulo Becker, and you find out that the drummer or pipemaker is someone else, it changes the experience. Who is playing that drum? Who am I connecting to?
Sorry, I'm just a blabber mouth tonight, waxing poetic with some Astleys 109 in that Becker-ish bent rhodesian of mine. Ha ha.
Keep it smokey folks :
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I think the line here is whether the pipemaker has been transparent and honest or not. If he lies about or conceals facts which, if known, would reduce the saleability of the pipes, then I have a problem with it.
If Tom Eltang sells pipes stamped as Tom Eltang pipes but they are only partly made by him and he does not disclose this...not good. He surely knows that buyers would not pay as much if they knew he did not carve the pipe or the stem himself. Withholding that information would have only one purpose, and that is to inflate prices by perpetuating a falsehood. Of course, this thread is a "what if..." scenario and I don't know how all of Tom's pipes are made. I find it hard to believe he would jeopardize his reputation. But then I guess it is unsaid but his sailor pipes could well be machine made. Not that anyone would see a sailor pipe and imagine these are the epitome of Eltang's mastery of pipemaking - they are very rudimentary. Would anyone really feel conned if they found that this was not made entirely by Tom's hand? I would feel differently if some of his regular line - including his signature pokers - were hand-finished rather than entirely handmade. Here is one of his sailor pipes - not much pixie dust on this...it sells for Euro 60.
The Becker pipes transition to Federico will, I assume, include a plan to introduce Federico and explain his credentials to the public. I wish him well and I hope he is as good a pipemaker as his venerable father.
If you look at what Trever Talbert and Chris Askwith do, I think there is a model to learn from. Talbert has his high grade one-offs but also his Ligne Bretagne line, which he tells us are old, pre-made stummels from a defunct French factory, hand-finished by Trever. They are considered very good value and nobody is being misled about what they are. They sell like hot cakes. Chris Askwith has two lines of pipes - "Handmade" and "Hand Finished". The hand-finished pipes are factory-made stummels and pre-moulded stems. Very good value and clearly explained on his website.
If Tom Eltang sells pipes stamped as Tom Eltang pipes but they are only partly made by him and he does not disclose this...not good. He surely knows that buyers would not pay as much if they knew he did not carve the pipe or the stem himself. Withholding that information would have only one purpose, and that is to inflate prices by perpetuating a falsehood. Of course, this thread is a "what if..." scenario and I don't know how all of Tom's pipes are made. I find it hard to believe he would jeopardize his reputation. But then I guess it is unsaid but his sailor pipes could well be machine made. Not that anyone would see a sailor pipe and imagine these are the epitome of Eltang's mastery of pipemaking - they are very rudimentary. Would anyone really feel conned if they found that this was not made entirely by Tom's hand? I would feel differently if some of his regular line - including his signature pokers - were hand-finished rather than entirely handmade. Here is one of his sailor pipes - not much pixie dust on this...it sells for Euro 60.
The Becker pipes transition to Federico will, I assume, include a plan to introduce Federico and explain his credentials to the public. I wish him well and I hope he is as good a pipemaker as his venerable father.
If you look at what Trever Talbert and Chris Askwith do, I think there is a model to learn from. Talbert has his high grade one-offs but also his Ligne Bretagne line, which he tells us are old, pre-made stummels from a defunct French factory, hand-finished by Trever. They are considered very good value and nobody is being misled about what they are. They sell like hot cakes. Chris Askwith has two lines of pipes - "Handmade" and "Hand Finished". The hand-finished pipes are factory-made stummels and pre-moulded stems. Very good value and clearly explained on his website.
"But, I am curious to know whether you would still enjoy the artisan made pipes that you value most if you found out that the maker never even touched the pipe?"
I had to go back to the original question. Short answer, no. It may smoke great, it may look awesome, but if I bought a Sbang and then found out that it had been made in France and then shipped back so someone could put a stamp on it, I would be pissed. No matter how well the pipe smoked, there would always be a bit of anger and I think that would effect the smoke.
Now, if you have a company such as Ashton, you pretty much know that unless you purchased one of the pipes early in the companies existence, that you probably were not getting a pipe made by Bill Taylor. However, you also knew that even though he may not have personally made the pipe, he did make sure that the pipe met all of the same standards that he would use if he had made the pipe.
But the biggest question is can a person be considered a pipe maker if he does not first grow the White Heath Tree that the briar burl comes from? :lol:
I had to go back to the original question. Short answer, no. It may smoke great, it may look awesome, but if I bought a Sbang and then found out that it had been made in France and then shipped back so someone could put a stamp on it, I would be pissed. No matter how well the pipe smoked, there would always be a bit of anger and I think that would effect the smoke.
Now, if you have a company such as Ashton, you pretty much know that unless you purchased one of the pipes early in the companies existence, that you probably were not getting a pipe made by Bill Taylor. However, you also knew that even though he may not have personally made the pipe, he did make sure that the pipe met all of the same standards that he would use if he had made the pipe.
But the biggest question is can a person be considered a pipe maker if he does not first grow the White Heath Tree that the briar burl comes from? :lol:
Or the Wrecking Crew group from the 60's-70's...
First off, I admit to being a nomenclature whore. I like my brands and details stamped clearly on all of my stamps. I seek out pipes with good, crisp nomenclature and original stems.
Ashton pipes are a similar example. At what point did Taylor stop making pipes that bear the Ashton marque? When did Jimmy Craig take over making most of the pipes in later production? I have a 2009 Ashton, the last of the 2-digit date stamp used by Taylor. I've read that Craig did most of the finishing work from 2007 to 2009. Craig doesn't talk much about that era (or really, ever..) Since Taylor died in September 2009, is my pipe a Jimmy Craig creation? I'd bet it is. I've never seen a Taylor era with the JC stamp, which was supposed to indicate it was made entirely by Jimmy Craig. This 2009 still has the same value to me, as the nomenclature is identical to earlier pipes. That holds the most value to my sensibilities.
First off, I admit to being a nomenclature whore. I like my brands and details stamped clearly on all of my stamps. I seek out pipes with good, crisp nomenclature and original stems.
Ashton pipes are a similar example. At what point did Taylor stop making pipes that bear the Ashton marque? When did Jimmy Craig take over making most of the pipes in later production? I have a 2009 Ashton, the last of the 2-digit date stamp used by Taylor. I've read that Craig did most of the finishing work from 2007 to 2009. Craig doesn't talk much about that era (or really, ever..) Since Taylor died in September 2009, is my pipe a Jimmy Craig creation? I'd bet it is. I've never seen a Taylor era with the JC stamp, which was supposed to indicate it was made entirely by Jimmy Craig. This 2009 still has the same value to me, as the nomenclature is identical to earlier pipes. That holds the most value to my sensibilities.
I think that Bill made pipes pretty much up until the end. Just not that many. But all of the pipes that went out all met the same high standards that Bill put in place on day one. So when you got an Ashton, whether it was made, finished etc. by Bill, Jimmy or any of the other makers he had, you still got a great pipe.
This is a new and fascinating area that I am completely ignorant of, like a lot of things. So, a group of guys got together and formed Ashton, a pipe company, and they made all of the pipes by hand, stamping them with company and maker's marks? Did they agree on the shapes and division of the work before beginning?
Ha ha, and Milli Vanilli crossed my mind also as this thread progressed also. I'm not as familiar with the Wrecking Crew.
Yeh, I've joked about filing off the nomenclature on my pipes. I could probably easily do that with most of mine, even Dunhill, but yeh, I have a few that I wouldn't dare...
Ha ha, and Milli Vanilli crossed my mind also as this thread progressed also. I'm not as familiar with the Wrecking Crew.
Yeh, I've joked about filing off the nomenclature on my pipes. I could probably easily do that with most of mine, even Dunhill, but yeh, I have a few that I wouldn't dare...
Actually two men, Bill Taylor and David Fields. Bill made the pipes and David was the Importer/Distributor. As business grew, and people discovered Ashton Pipes, there was a demand vs. supply issue. Bill had to take on help. (trainee, apprentice, any other name that you may want to throw in) That was only natural. Bill was using the same business model that he had learned from the years he had spent at Dunhill. Bill had full control on what would get a stamp, he had full creative decision. As the trainee developed, he was given more responsibilities. Over time you now have two pipe makers working at turning out the product and then as business continues to grow, you add another person and the whole process starts again. I honestly don't know how many people where turning pipes for Bill when he passed, but by that time he had turned over daily operations to Jimmy, who still runs the show today.
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