What if? The Removal of the Pixie Pipe Dust

[daimyo]

I think if you have a single person producing work especially if you trained that person, it's not production in the truest sense of the word. I think their is likely some difference being added by our particular time in history as well. A hundered years ago, most crafts people had apprentices and people often tried to keep their business in family hands. The great sword makers of Japan were usually families and while one may have stood out, generally the desirable aspects of a families sword was successfully passed on to the next generation, by training of course not genetics. Everyone gets old and one can either let the family business die or try to keep it going. I suppose I have always though of Becker as a family company while I think of Tom Eltang as a singular artisan and know that a Sarah Eltang will be labeled as such. Definitely an interesting read, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[georged]

Unless terms are defined at the beginning of a discussion like this, it is pointless.
NO pipe (that I know of, anyway) is the creation of a single individual. That would require going into the field and digging your own burls, processing them, creating your own vulcanite, raising your own lac bugs for shellac, and so on. Digging the ore from which to smelt the steel for your tools, for that matter. And on and on.
Given that, the question is how MUCH of the work must be done by the named artisan. Not only in percentage terms, but the steps themselves. Having your neighbor cut out the shape on your bandsaw, for example has much less to do with the final outcome than who drew the lines on the block. And on and on.
Once you get that straightened out and agreed upon---good luck with that :lol: ---you can give this sort of subject a proper go. But not until then.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm sorry that I didn't give this topic a "proper go" as you put it. I guess you speak for the entire forum as elected under by-laws and such. I will just refrain from further posts till I run these by you before submitting.

Thank you, I would hate to subject the forum to further pointlessness. Please feel free to edit and rearrange my post )or any of my past posts) to fit your definition of "proper." I will await your approval before any further posts. Thank you again. I would hate to look foolish or indefinitive to the pipe public, Thank you, thank you. Much appreciated. ::

 

[georged]

I would hate to look foolish or indefinitive to the pipe public...

I think that horse has already left the barn.

 

[Chasing Embers]

I thought we were just debating the craftsmanship, not the materials. That would be like saying Davinci's work wasn't important because he didn't make all of his raw materials.

 

[georged]

I thought we were just debating the craftsmanship, not the materials. That would be like saying Davinci's work wasn't important because he didn't make all of his raw materials.

I was using extremes to make a point.
Starting with pre-fabbed vulcanite, cured briar blocks, and so forth, which steps of making a pipe must be performed in their entirety by the pipe's namesake, then, in order for it to be considered "legit"? Please be specific.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Georged, how about just adding to this friendly discussion and banter or attempt to enlighten us, as opposed to just being insulting and conceded troll. Where do you draw the line? Where should I draw the line?

 

[Chasing Embers]

@georged

Of course all of that matters, some of the carvers actually list their choice of materials on their websites, or when you are having a commission made. All this thread was really questioning, was is the stamp on your pipe really of the carver themselves, or just by proxy of someone carving for them?

 

[gloucesterman]

I concur. I thought this was about the practice of outsourcing the production of pipes supposedly made by a specific maker and how we perceived that practice in general. We know it is a practice that has been going on in the industry for a long time but when it creeps into the small shop high end market it's crossed the line and becomes deceptive. Most seem to agree, "If it says it was made by so and so, then it should be". Who dug the burl doesn't really matter in this case.

 

[georged]

...when it creeps into the small shop high end market it's crossed the line and becomes deceptive.

I repeat: what constitutes "crossing the line"? Until that question gets answered, the back-and-forth in this thread is meaningless.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time finding meaning in this thread, georged...

 

[kcvet67]

Until that question gets answered, the back-and-forth in this thread is meaningless.

We'd all hate to see you waste your valuable time on meaningless chatter. Perhaps you'd be more content somewhere that adheres to more stringent semantic standards.

 

[georged]

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time finding meaning in this thread, georged...

As is anyone else reading it, I assure you.
If you merely enjoy typing back and forth for its own sake, knock yourself out. Get as indignant as you like about someone other than the stamped maker having had a hand in a pipe's creation. If it makes you feel good to shake your fist at the moon, by all means continue.
But until someone nails down exactly what that means, the conversation is semantically null.
Why? Because many artisan carvers collaborate with each other on a continuing basis, in every manner possible, from face-to-face shop sharing to Google+. And no small number also have assistants who do various tasks in their stead. In some cases literally everything... the "name" carver just functions as the executive chef, guiding at decision points, and performing the QA function.

 

[beastkhk]

Welcome to Thunderdome!

 

[monty55]

Good grief!
georged, get a life!
This was a fine thread that encourages thought-provoking questions for serious discussion by pipe smokers! If you just want to start shit, go do it on another forum, you are not welcome to do that here.

 

[monty55]

As is anyone else reading it, I assure you.
If you merely enjoy typing back and forth for its own sake, knock yourself out. Get as indignant as you like about someone other than the stamped maker having had a hand in a pipe's creation. If it makes you feel good to shake your fist at the moon, by all means continue.
But until someone nails down exactly what that means, the conversation is semantically null.
Why? Because many artisan carvers collaborate with each other on a continuing basis, in every manner possible, from face-to-face shop sharing to Google+. And no small number also have assistants who do various tasks in their stead. In some cases literally everything... the "name" carver just functions as the executive chef, guiding at decision points, and performing the QA function.

Ooh.. I see now.. your a raving narcissist! Your still not welcome to start shit here! Scram!

 

[georged]

All that, and still no one is willing to define what "made by the person whose name is stamped on the pipe" means.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

We are very lucky to have some pipemakers who will interact with us in a constructive way. Thank you Walt. And even Smoking Pipes chimed in, and that is a part of what makes the forums awesome. It just amazes me though when a pipemaker would come over to the guys who buy their pipes and piss on them. Ha ha! I love it!

 

[gloucesterman]

georged, you have senior members and preferred members giving you some insight as to how to conduct yourself on this forum. My suggestion would be take it. If it doesn't work for you, go elsewhere. Here tolerance and courtesy are encouraged. In every exchange there are seeds of understanding and we all benefit.

 

[georged]

georged, you have senior members and preferred members giving you some insight as to how to conduct yourself on this forum.

Asking for clarification of when a pipe maker is "allowed" to stamp his name on his product is improper conduct?
Oh my.
Especially on the heels of this sort of thing:

I don't buy any of the progeny shit. I have pipes that cost $20 to 2,000, all of them smoke great. A monkey with a few hours training can make a damned pipe that smokes, ...well, a very well trained monkey, ha ha. It's two holes in a block of wood. If a moron can't make one after a few days, then I don't want anything that moron makes. It's not like it involves micro welding and prong setting a $2000 diamond. It doesn't even take the skill needed to maintain a kiln and the chemistry of glazes. Not to completely diminish the skills needed for wood, but it's not rocket science.

(In order) shit, monkey, monkey, moron, moron, not rocket science... And that's in just one paragraph. Your notions of courtesy, tolerance, and respect are certainly different than mine. :roll: