Substitute for Carolina Red Flake

[BROBS]

Sounds great! Another one on the list. ? How’s Crumble Kake Red?

Ironically I think it was a tin of MacBaren ODF (pls someone correct me if I am misremembering) that had an insert stating that they used vinegar as a preservative which may discolor the rim of the tin, which is normal. No apparent vinegar aroma however.

It’s St Bruno you’re referring to I believe.

crumble Kake red VA is delish.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I'd recommend you try Opening Night, Union Square (GLP) and Old Gowrie (Rattray's). I happen to like CRF quite a bit and have around 50 tins. I have some pretty awesome tins open right now and the 11 year old Old Gowrie is the best.

 

[BROBS]

Actually, I never saw an insert in any of my ODF, but Per Jenson stated this on a post where Harris was complaining about rust in the tins, that they were trying a vinegar as an anti-molding agent. Then everyone speculated from there that McClellands did the same, which started all of the big men behind the scenes jumping to defend Mac Barens.

But, since the thread is heading for the ditch anyways...

From Mike McNiel

-"McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.
The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur."

From Greg Pease

-"Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?
Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."


These were provided by Chasingembers, but you can hear Mike in his own words on the PM Radioshow, check out his last show with Brian.

I’ve had other brands thag were aged, not mcclelland, and had the ketchup

 

[ofafeather]

It’s St Bruno you’re referring to I believe.

Could be. I’ve only opened one tin of each and they went into jars.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

How does it work? Never saw it before.

Click on the first set of three vertical dots, and the drop down shows quote marks. I thought it was making a quote, but it's not. It's called a "spoiler"
I have no idea where the inline quote button is now though, ha ha.

 

[ofafeather]

Click on the first set of three vertical dots, and the drop down shows quote marks. I thought it was making a quote, but it's not. It's called a "spoiler"
I have no idea where the inline quote button is now though, ha ha.
View attachment 65557

Very cool! Thanks! For online reply on my phone I highlight the text and “reply” pops up under it. Click reply (sometimes 2x) and it will work. Not sure if it’s the same on PC bc I don’t spend much time on a computer for this kind of stuff these days.

 

[sablebrush52]

"Legendary" due to rarity and nostalgia I suspect. Back when McClelland's were around the consensus was pretty 50/50 - not everybody liked that pickling vinegar casing they do with all their virginias.

Not at the time it was in production and available. McCranie's enjoyed a high status when it was plentiful. I cellared it, so nostalgia doesn't play into my enjoyment of it.

 

[sablebrush52]

Not this again. Jesus... just let it go.

Why? If people are devoted to spreading misinformation, why shouldn't other peiple be just as devoted to setting the record straight? Vinegars are used for preservation, and not just by McClelland.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

and not just by McClelland.

I hate to correct someone who is sort of defending me... well, you know me... but, there is no evidence that McClellands used Vinegar for anything in their blends.

 

[sablebrush52]

I can’t speak from experience but have heard that Watch City Simply Red and Sutliff 515-RC are good examples of red VAs.

515-RC was developed by Sutliff as a blending tobacco that would impart a flavor similar to McClelland 5100. It's not an altogether bad smoke on its own, though I find it a bit monochromatic, but slightly less of a monochromatic snooze than 5100, which I also have.
Simply Red is a good red virginia blend. It's not a McClelland killer. It doesn't scratch the matured red Virginia itch as it's not that kind of blend. Simply Red doesn't need to be. Maybe let it sit for a decade and see what develops. Or just enjoy a good red now.

 

[sablebrush52]

I hate to correct someone who is sort of defending me... well, you know me... but, there is no evidence that McClellands used Vinegar for anything in their blends.

I know acetic acid when I smell it. I spent too many hours in dark rooms not to instantly recognize it. It's not in everything that McClelland output, It's sure as hell is in the Reds. I've also spoken with Greg and he's referred to acetic acid being used as a preservative. So I'll just correct you back.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I know acetic acid when I smell it. I spent too many hours in dark rooms not to instantly recognize it. It's not in everything that McClelland output, It's sure as hell is in the Reds. I've also spoken with Greg and he's referred to acetic acid being used as a preservative. So I'll just correct you back.

Did you miss the posts that I made... you can also hear Mike in his own words talk about the process on teh last interview he did with Brian Levine. Greg has also talked at length about this. Here is the quote again, without the spoiler setting.

From Mike McNiel

-"McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.
The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur."

From Greg Pease

-"Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?
Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."

The differences between adding a vinegar or an acid is that essence of the fruit remains. White vinegar is made from potatoes, so rotten potatoes is evident in the bottle. Red wine vinegar, the same... on and on... But, as Greg describes here and in other places, if you do not add a microbial inhibitor, then you allow a wild ferment to take hold, which turns the tobacco into a wild yeast ferment, or a vinegar. But, the essence of this is rotting tobaccos, not another fruit. This makes a big difference. It is the difference between pouring PGA into a grape juice up to 12% abv and calling it wine, and actually making the grapes into a wine.

What Sutliff did was disgusting and makes me physically ill to try to smoke it.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

@sablebrush52 So, now if you need more proof, I have read where Mark Ryan also talks about McClelland's sweating process and wild ferments, and Greg has a few more bits floating about. But, Mike's own words should suffice.
So, now what someone says that Sutliff is doing the same thing as McClellands it is our duty to put that absolute bold face lie out with a fire extinguisher.

I hereby send you out into the world to fight this lie with prejudice and impunity.

 

[stokesdale]

By the way, I mentioned earlier that CRF and Interlude are nearly identical in terms of cut, color/appearance, and of course, flavor (except for a slight honey casing)...here's a photo I just took of CRF on the left and Interlude on the right.

 

[sablebrush52]

@sablebrush52 So, now if you need more proof, I have read where Mark Ryan also talks about McClelland's sweating process and wild ferments, and Greg has a few more bits floating about. But, Mike's own words should suffice.
So, now what someone says that Sutliff is doing the same thing as McClellands it is our duty to put that absolute bold face lie out with a fire extinguisher.

I hereby send you out into the world to fight this lie with prejudice and impunity.

I'm not saying that the vinegar smell isn't part of the fermentation process. But there are two parts to that vinegar aroma, and one of them is acetic acid which was traditionally used as an anti mold preservative.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm not saying that the vinegar smell isn't part of the fermentation process. But there are two parts to that vinegar aroma, and one of them is acetic acid which was traditionally used as an anti mold preservative.

Did you read what Greg said? It is by NOT adding acetic acid that you get a wild ferment that causes the tobaccos to create the acetic acid naturally, which is 100% different from the smell of just adding acetic acid.

So far, only MacBarens has been known to use vinegar as an anti-mold, it is very sparingly. I'm not even 100% certain that they still do this, because it was rusting the tins at an alarming rate. And, they definitely altered their recipe shortly after releasing ODF, which is the only blend ever mentioned by Per to have had vinegar added. It is definitely not a traditional mold inhibitor used today, for the very reason that it rusts tins quickly. Greg, mentions the vinegar because of what Per Jenson has said, but that doesn't translate into vinegar being widely used on tobaccos. Actually, heated vinegar can do some respiratory damage. Just trying to smoke the Sutliff crap made me physically ill, unlike anything I've experienced from McClellands.

 

[pip01]

Give Union Square a try. I had a first edition tin that was approx 9 yrs old when I tried it. Best Straight VA I ever had. Blew them all away. I bought a 8oz tin right after that. Still needs another 7 yrs to go.

 

[mikestanley]

Not at the time it was in production and available. McCranie's enjoyed a high status when it was plentiful. I cellared it, so nostalgia doesn't play into my enjoyment of it.

Legendary as in now it is evident just how difficult it is to put out these fantastic products now that McClelland is no more. If you ask me.

Mike S.

 

[logs]

Can we just change the thread title to: Cosmic And Sable Disagree; Everyone Else Bored Shitless

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Legendary as in now it is evident just how difficult it is to put out these fantastic products now that McClelland is no more. If you ask me.

Mike S.

Two factor will most likely prevent any other company from trying to do what McClelland had done. One is that it takes a lot of time to develop this sort of bacterial fermentation (or wild yeast ferments). That is product just setting there, not making money.
Two, it takes many trials and errors that can be expensive to cultivate the correct microbes. Once a sweating pile of tobacco has developed the correct microbes for this type of fermentation, it will seep into all wooden and concrete surfaces. But, for every batch that goes bad, most likely the storage room would have to be sterilized or no longer used. We are talking millions of microbes on every living surface that breaks us and all plants down into dirt, the moment we die, and just a few of these are the ones that can turn something into wine, and just a few more that will make acetic acids.