MODERATOR!!!Here we go.....
Substitute for Carolina Red Flake
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"Legendary" due to rarity and nostalgia I suspect. Back when McClelland's were around the consensus was pretty 50/50 - not everybody liked that pickling vinegar casing they do with all their virginias.
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Back to OP's question: I personally don't rate the recent C&D CRF drops to be any where near top tier virginias. Then again, I lean towards virginias that are spiked with a small % of perique, which often mimics the effects of aging on a quality virginia. Two current-production blends that do this exact thing perfectly is: Robert McConnell's Red Virginia and Dan Tobacco's Virginia Slices.
Thinking about it, if you like the grassy, hay notes in the newer CRF, maybe give Esoterica's Dunbar a try too if you can find a tin...
Just for the record, Mike himself and Greg Pease have stated that the vinegar-like aroma from the tin of McClellands was not a casing. That was natural fermentation aromas via a McClellands method of production.
Not this again. Jesus... just let it go.
Hey, just trying to keep down the constant misinformation.
FWIW, this article might be of some interest. It spefically mentions CRF and some other blends that use the same leaf.
Can you link me to a source? I have some theories on how they ferment their leaf but would love to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
But yeah, I was more or less referring to people's reactions to the 'iconic' scent, not everyone liked it until they went out of business is the point I'm trying to make...
I saw this article a while back...problem is, none of these are straight reds, they are all blends--good article though.
I will DM you to keep from driving this train off the rails. Plus, we don't want to make Logs ornery.
I will DM you to keep from driving this train off the rails. Plus, we don't want to make Logs ornery.
You should link it in the thread. Probably relevant/useful for others who are trying to read up about all this.
I can’t speak from experience but have heard that Watch City Simply Red and Sutliff 515-RC are good examples of red VAs.
Could be, I don't know. I also smoke Crumble Kake Red which is a straight red, but considerably different profile to CRF. I simply think it's tough to find a match to CRF unless it's Interlude (which I mentioned before). Interlude's texture is exactly the same, color is exactly the same, and taste is nearly identical to the old batch CRF, and a tad sweeter than the new batch CRF (probably the light honey casing doing that).
Sounds great! Another one on the list. ? How’s Crumble Kake Red?
Ironically I think it was a tin of MacBaren ODF (pls someone correct me if I am misremembering) that had an insert stating that they used vinegar as a preservative which may discolor the rim of the tin, which is normal. No apparent vinegar aroma however.
Actually, I never saw an insert in any of my ODF, but Per Jenson stated this on a post where Harris was complaining about rust in the tins, that they were trying a vinegar as an anti-molding agent. Then everyone speculated from there that McClellands did the same, which started all of the big men behind the scenes jumping to defend Mac Barens.
But, since the thread is heading for the ditch anyways...
From Mike McNiel
-"McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.
The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur."
From Greg Pease
-"Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?
Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."
These were provided by Chasingembers, but you can hear Mike in his own words on the PM Radioshow, check out his last show with Brian.
Crumble Kake Red is excellent! Not an all day smoke like Interlude could be if you wanted to, but it's very deep, very sweet even though no casing or topping. If you try some though, it will seem wet but it's not, it's just had all the sugar pressed to the surface of the leaf--Sutliff steam presses it. Because of this, you will need more relights than normal. Probably what I like most about it though is the after taste, it lingers really well and not that sort of ashy after taste like you get with other tobaccos sometimes, but a sweet tongue coating after taste (hard to explain).
Cool. They must have started last summer. That’s when my tin was from. After that first time I bought a couple of pounds so probably won’t see that insert again.
Thanks for that! Insightful.
Good to know! It sounds great! I am not usually able to have more than one bowl in prime smoking season so something with weight to is perfect. All day smokes leave me hanging when I can only have one. Thanks for sharing.
All of my tins are from the first two years after this one was first released. So, if they ran an insert recently, I have no idea.
But it's cool how this spoiler feature works. I had no idea...
Call me crazy, but I liked it better. But hey, that's why there are so many blends out there. ?
Fitting. Blurry thoughts require blurry text.
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