Interesting Completed Ebay Auctions - British Pipes

[runscott]

Dl you have a picture? I'd like to see that. I've never seen a pre war Sasieni with a "four dot" stamp on it

Following is what Pipedia states. I have a couple of Sasienis that match the following description of 'four dot' pipes, but certainly Pipedia could be wrong and my patent 'four dot' pipes could be post-war.

When it comes to this sort of stuff, I certainly defer to the experts over Pipedia.

"Both the Eight Dot and the Four Dot were marketed in the U. S. during the pre-war years, with the Eight Dot fetching more money, even though both pipes used the same wood."

"All Sasieni One, Four, and Eight Dot pipes made before W.W.II and destined for the U. S. market carried a patent number on the shank which usually started with the numbers “15″, with 150221/20 and 1513428 being representative of the group. Also, the name “Sasieni” was stamped on the shank in a very florid manner, with the tail of the last “i” sweeping underneath the name forming a shape which has been compared to a fish by more than one collector. This script was discontinued by Alfred almost immediately after he took over the company, so this alone tells you your pipe is pre W.W.II. "

 

[runscott]

But even if Pipedia is wrong, collectors will think the information is correct. So the '8 dot' Oom Paul stem we are discussing could be put on a 'four dot' patent with florid script, and collectors would think they had found a treasure.

 

[sablebrush52]

Following is what Pipedia states. I have a couple of Sasienis that match the following description of 'four dot' pipes, but certainly Pipedia could be wrong and my patent 'four dot' pipes could be post-war.

When it comes to this sort of stuff, I certainly defer to the experts over Pipedia.

"Both the Eight Dot and the Four Dot were marketed in the U. S. during the pre-war years, with the Eight Dot fetching more money, even though both pipes used the same wood."

"All Sasieni One, Four, and Eight Dot pipes made before W.W.II and destined for the U. S. market carried a patent number on the shank which usually started with the numbers “15″, with 150221/20 and 1513428 being representative of the group. Also, the name “Sasieni” was stamped on the shank in a very florid manner, with the tail of the last “i” sweeping underneath the name forming a shape which has been compared to a fish by more than one collector. This script was discontinued by Alfred almost immediately after he took over the company, so this alone tells you your pipe is pre W.W.II. "

OK, pricing from Sasieni didn't vary between 4 and 8 dots, so maybe someone was doing a bit of gouging. Wouldn't be the first time. The one part about this first sentence is correct, that the wood was the same.

What I don't see in the quote is that a "four dot" stamp was used with the fishtail script before the war. One wonders where they would have put it, since that swash under the Sasieni logo took up a lot of real estate. Then there's a line for LONDON MADE and below that the patent stamp. Tucked into a corner is the football shaped Made In England stamp.

My early post war Sasienis have the "four dot" stamp below the revised Sasieni logo, followed by a smaller LONDON MADE stamp and next the patent stamp. The made in England football is off to the side.

 

[runscott]

I just dug up my two 'four dot' patents - they are the same as your description (not florid script).

Maybe the first sentence of the second paragraph ("All Sasieni One, Four, and Eight Dot pipes made before W.W.II...") is technically true, but the quantity of 'four dots' made before the war was 'zero'.

 

[sablebrush52]

But even if Pipedia is wrong, collectors will think the information is correct. So the '8 dot' Oom Paul stem we are discussing could be put on a 'four dot' patent with florid script, and collectors would think they had found a treasure.

Some collectors are driven by factors other than expertise. They will always be suckers for crooks. Most are pretty well informed about what they are collecting.
In general, Pipedia does a really good job of providing reliable information, but we're still dealing with an area that lacks substantial documentation, so some information is passed down through oral history. I'm always happiest when I can find company documentation, catalogs, patent or design registration records, or other documentation.

 

[runscott]

I'm always happiest when I can find company documentation, catalogs, patent or design registration records, or other documentation.

Catalogs and advertising can even be misleading, due to use of old images, or mock-ups that were never made. I used to research, collect and restore Brunswick Willie Hoppe pool cues. I was always excited to find old advertisements, catalogs, mailers with stampings, company envelopes, etc., from Brunswick. Boy did I document a lot of stuff incorrectly. The example that made me re-think everything was finding a 1960 mailing tube with a 1940's logo and a cue inside with a 1950's decal. Ran into the same stuff when documenting Stetson hat logos found on leather bands, boxes, catalogs, etc.

Geeky stuff, but a good way to waste an hour on a cold, icy Thursday morning Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[sablebrush52]

I just dug up my two 'four dot' patents - they are the same as your description (not florid script).

Maybe the first sentence of the second paragraph ("All Sasieni One, Four, and Eight Dot pipes made before W.W.II...") is technically true, but the quantity of 'four dots' made before the war was 'zero'.

I don't think they were referring to an actual stamp in that sentence.
Sasieni was a prolific downstreamer of wood that didn't measure up to its top metric. Only Comoy seems to have been as prolific. I could see where Sasieni would add a written "FOUR DOT" stamp to their brand name to reinforce their grading of the wood as their best grade, as opposed to just keeping their name on their better 2nds and dropping their name on their 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths.

 

[sablebrush52]

Catalogs and advertising can even be misleading, due to use of old images, or mock-ups that were never made. I used to research, collect and restore Brunswick Willie Hoppe pool cues. I was always excited to find old advertisements, catalogs, mailers with stampings, company envelopes, etc., from Brunswick. Boy did I document a lot of stuff incorrectly. The example that made me re-think everything was finding a 1960 mailing tube with a 1940's logo and a cue inside with a 1950's decal. Ran into the same stuff when documenting Stetson hat logos found on leather bands, boxes, catalogs, etc.

Geeky stuff, but a good way to waste an hour on a cold, icy Thursday morning Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Yep, trust, but verify.

 

[runscott]

I don't think they were referring to an actual stamp in that sentence.
Sasieni was a prolific downstreamer of wood that didn't measure up to its top metric. Only Comoy seems to have been as prolific. I could see where Sasieni would add a written "FOUR DOT" stamp to their brand name to reinforce their grading of the wood as their best grade, as opposed to just keeping their name on their better 2nds and dropping their name on their 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths.

Interesting stuff. I only know enough about Sasienis to feel comfortable with some of the auctions for older, more valuable pipes;i.e-if I don't feel comfortable, I stay away. I did not realize that the 'dot' terms were referring more to wood quality than branding, but my thinking in that area was based on research I did when making decisions about purchasing an '8 dot'. I have only smoked pre-1950 ones, and all have been good smokers.

 

[sablebrush52]

Interesting stuff. I only know enough about Sasienis to feel comfortable with some of the auctions for older, more valuable pipes;i.e-if I don't feel comfortable, I stay away. I did not realize that the 'dot' terms were referring more to wood quality than branding, but my thinking in that area was based on research I did when making decisions about purchasing an '8 dot'. I have only smoked pre-1950 ones, and all have been good smokers.

The decision to make the 8 dot, which is really a double 4 dot, marking on the stem is about brand, not about quality. The idea was that the company's logo would be visible from both sides, advertising if you will, that smokers chose Sasieni pipes to smoke. No ambiguity. 8 dots VS 4 dots was not a grading of any kind.

 

[georged]

 

[sablebrush52]

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It would be funnier if they were bright red.

 

[captainsousie]

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The Sasieni plague dot? Damn rare if you ask me...

 

[captainsousie]

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Aw crap, may have actually been the Sasieni Teenager. Rare pipe again due to the proliferation of white dots.

 

[BarrelProof]

The Sasieni plague dot? Damn rare if you ask me...

The Sasieni Coronavirus.

 

[craig61a]

But even if Pipedia is wrong, collectors will think the information is correct. So the '8 dot' Oom Paul stem we are discussing could be put on a 'four dot' patent with florid script, and collectors would think they had found a treasure.

In that case the transition from shank to stem would be mismatched. And any attempt to try and match it afterwards would likely stick out like a sore thumb.

 

[runscott]

In that case the transition from shank to stem would be mismatched. And any attempt to try and match it afterwards would likely stick out like a sore thumb.

not necessarily

 

[craig61a]

not necessarily

OK... How would that work?

 

[runscott]

OK... How would that work?

You're right - I'm wrong. Have a great weekend.

Received this one yesterday and it's now clean and ready to smoke. 1876 Birmingham 'SM or WS' hallmarks, with 1895 Chester 'W&Co' repair band hallmarks. 5.5" long

 

[sablebrush52]

OK... How would that work?

Someone with actual skills doing the stem replacement, like George. He can flush fit anything he wants to tackle, and flawlessly reproduce a factory's own quirks, if needs be. The average bozo will make a shambles of it. Just getting the dots correct is no small feat. It's one of the ways I can spot a fake, and they do show up from time to time.