Are we Really Losing That Much With the Closures of Mac Baren and Sutliff?

[NookersTheCat]

So, here's hoping we still see Hiking available going forward. It's tough enough to find now.

https://www.tobaccoreviews.com/adva...m=Kohlhase+&+Kopp&searchBy=ManufacturedBy

Def hope so too. Even just for you guys but I'd also like to try it one day and never had yet.
Not to be a downer but I did see someone else on here stating that even though the series was made by Kopp, Sutliff/MB had the rights to the whole trademark if not blend recipe and therefore was just going to let the whole thing die.
Now idk, if that's true maybe Kopp will come out with their own flake that's close if not identical depending on what the law allows but we'll have to see.

 

[Deano]

Peterson/Dunhill is STG and the dude who axed Sutliff/MacBaren stated that by 2028 they will almost certainly be cutting some if not all of these too. He claims the Dunhill blends actually sell pretty poorly (by their standards) in the U.S. I'd try to stock up on those if I were you and you are able.

Ive picked up a few tins recently to re-inforce my stash.

 

[Swiss Army Knife]

I wonder if the market share Sutliff of premium pipe tobacco had will just evaporate?

Almost certainly not. We're already seeing Laudisi rapidly moving into the space with their Rivertown bulks. Gawith Hoggarth & Co. has also just expanded stateside with bulk blending components. So while Sutliff leaves a big hole it'll be filled to some extent by the independent companies that remain.

I'm most curious about who, if anyone, will pick up the Match mantle. Maybe as Jeremy Reeves gets older he'll wax nostalgic about lost blends and get Cornell & Diehl more into doing matches.

 

[crashthegrey]

Def hope so too. Even just for you guys but I'd also like to try it one day and never had yet.
Not to be a downer but I did see someone else on here stating that even though the series was made by Kopp, Sutliff/MB had the rights to the whole trademark if not blend recipe and therefore was just going to let the whole thing die.
Now idk, if that's true maybe Kopp will come out with their own flake that's close if not identical depending on what the law allows but we'll have to see.

The Cobblestone line was confirmed as canceled, but it would be cool to see Kopp introduce a similar tobacco. However, it cannot pass regulatory restrictions if it is new.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

However, it cannot pass regulatory restrictions if it is new.

That argument that FDA stuff is preventing new blends from hitting the market baffles me. Leonard had actually said that these costs millions of dollars... But, yet we have seen several new blends from C&D hit the shelves, some as staples, some as small batches. IS C&D just a much larger powerhouse than all of the rest of the tobacco companies? Sutliff and MacB had new blends also before they took the shank. And, we even got a whole new line of blends from HU.

I don't understand these arguments.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

We even have a new line of Nording Hunter series tobaccos. It is nothing like when McClelland made them, and yet GH and STG keep saying that FDA is preventing them from doing this or that. But, here we have several brand new blends.

 

[sablebrush52]

That argument that FDA stuff is preventing new blends from hitting the market baffles me. Leonard had actually said that these costs millions of dollars... But, yet we have seen several new blends from C&D hit the shelves, some as staples, some as small batches. IS C&D just a much larger powerhouse than all of the rest of the tobacco companies? Sutliff and MacB had new blends also before they took the shank. And, we even got a whole new line of blends from HU.

I don't understand these arguments.

Why assume that these are new blends rather than relabelings of existing blends? Or, why assume these are "legal" blends? According to Sutliff's manager, Sutliff had a lot of blends out that weren't going to survive the deeming process.
STG is a publicly traded company, which puts it under a legislative microscope, so they won't take risks. Laudisi is a private company, so they may figure that they have more latitude for the time being.
The FDA has been otherwise occupied, but have indicated that they are getting back on track with the Deeming bullshit.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Why assume that these are new blends rather than relabelings of existing blends? Or, why assume these are "legal" blends? According to Sutliff's manager, Sutliff had a lot of blends out that weren't going to survive the deeming process.
STG is a publicly traded company, which puts it under a legislative microscope, so they won't take risks. Laudisi is a private company, so they may figure that they have more latitude for the time being.
The FDA has been otherwise occupied, but have indicated that they are getting back on track with the Deeming bullshit.

The original Nording Hunter Blends were made my McClelland and were aromatics and these are Virginia Blends. Maybe they aren't legal... if so, extra kudos to C&D.

 

[The Novice Piper]

I'd hate to buy something and not even like it when it could have gone to someone else who loved it.

You are the most honorable man here. May you never be affected by the Tobaccopocalypse.

 

[crashthegrey]

That argument that FDA stuff is preventing new blends from hitting the market baffles me. Leonard had actually said that these costs millions of dollars... But, yet we have seen several new blends from C&D hit the shelves, some as staples, some as small batches. IS C&D just a much larger powerhouse than all of the rest of the tobacco companies? Sutliff and MacB had new blends also before they took the shank. And, we even got a whole new line of blends from HU.

I don't understand these arguments.

The biggest difference is two-fold. One, STG is publicly traded and more concerned with the ramifications. Two, every lawyer interprets the deeming regulations differently. Even during the acquisition, different legal representation did not agree, so everyone is listening to their own legal team for interpretation.

 

[KennethR]

There are Sutliff / Macbaren blends I will miss, but I am more concerned about the effect upon the smaller blenders.

Agree. I hope the smaller B&M can get the blends they need.

 

[KennethR]

The biggest difference is two-fold. One, STG is publicly traded and more concerned with the ramifications. Two, every lawyer interprets the deeming regulations differently. Even during the acquisition, different legal representation did not agree, so everyone is listening to their own legal team for interpretation.

I would love for a larger blender on this forum to explain deeming and FDA laws to the wider pipe community and how the interpret it. It's a knowledge black hole for many pipe smokers, and we are interested in the process.

 

[KennethR]

The biggest difference is two-fold. One, STG is publicly traded and more concerned with the ramifications. Two, every lawyer interprets the deeming regulations differently. Even during the acquisition, different legal representation did not agree, so everyone is listening to their own legal team for interpretation.

I would love for a larger blender on this forum to explain deeming and FDA laws to the wider pipe community and how the interpret it. It's a knowledge black hole for many pipe smokers, and we are interested in the process.

That argument that FDA stuff is preventing new blends from hitting the market baffles me. Leonard had actually said that these costs millions of dollars... But, yet we have seen several new blends from C&D hit the shelves, some as staples, some as small batches. IS C&D just a much larger powerhouse than all of the rest of the tobacco companies? Sutliff and MacB had new blends also before they took the shank. And, we even got a whole new line of blends from HU.

I don't understand these arguments.

I would love more insight into new blends hitting the shelves and the legal process to achieve this.

 

[Pipeh]

That argument that FDA stuff is preventing new blends from hitting the market baffles me. Leonard had actually said that these costs millions of dollars... But, yet we have seen several new blends from C&D hit the shelves, some as staples, some as small batches. IS C&D just a much larger powerhouse than all of the rest of the tobacco companies? Sutliff and MacB had new blends also before they took the shank. And, we even got a whole new line of blends from HU.

I don't understand these arguments.

In the youtube interview with Leonard, I think he said that STG is very risk-averse, and for them it isn't worth the hassle to mess with regulators, so they don't try. I think he also said he couldn't say exactly why you see new blends from other companies, but I think the implication was that they are more willing to try and walk up to the line, or even push the envelope and see if they get pushed back. Maybe they have a constructive legal argument for why it's ok (for example, the components are the same components we've used in other blends), or maybe they are just putting stuff on the shelves and planning to beg forgiveness if caught. So the reason it would cost STG millions is that they want to follow the rules, and jumping through the hoops costs a lot of money. But a less risk-averse company could simply put stuff on the shelf without jumping through the hoops, and could be waiting for regulators to tell them which hoops they missed.

 

[sablebrush52]

I would love for a larger blender on this forum to explain deeming and FDA laws to the wider pipe community and how the interpret it. It's a knowledge black hole for many pipe smokers, and we are interested in the process.

All of it is available online. Back in 2016 I read through all the parts that pertained to pipes and pipe tobacco. The problem is that it’s written in Crypto Neo Medieval Bulgarian, including the updates.

 

[crashthegrey]

I would love for a larger blender on this forum to explain deeming and FDA laws to the wider pipe community and how the interpret it. It's a knowledge black hole for many pipe smokers, and we are interested in the process.

I got Leonard to explain it fairly thoroughly, both Grandfather and substantial equivalent. It's available on The Greywoodie Show.

 

[fireground_piper]

I would love for a larger blender on this forum to explain deeming and FDA laws to the wider pipe community and how the interpret it. It's a knowledge black hole for many pipe smokers, and we are interested in the process.

Every individual lawyer/legal team will make their own interpretations. I've seen a lot more loose interpretations of "substantial equivalent" and there's a ton of these that have gone that route for their approvals.

This goes for any legal guidance really. If you work along side any legal team for any period of time, you'll experience policy and risk shifts any time new department heads come in. Things you may not have been allowed to do previously might become OK, things you were allowed to do previously might no longer be OK.

 

[Nevaditude]

The Cobblestone line was confirmed as canceled, but it would be cool to see Kopp introduce a similar tobacco. However, it cannot pass regulatory restrictions if it is new.

YES! This.... and call it Kopp-lestone

 

[eyjaygaming]

If anybody is interested and wants to invest a little time in researching the topic of approved pipe tobacco blends by the FDA, just head to Searchable Tobacco Products Database - https://www.fda.gov/searchtobacco . I count 883 Sutliff blends that have been approved by the FDA, either as a "Pre Existing Tobacco Product" or "Substantially Equivalent". Not really sure about the validity or completeness of the list... if this database were true, Captain Black Platinum by STG is not FDA approved pipe tobacco. So, use caution and don't jump to conclusions.

For some of the blends, you can see the insane amount of documentation a pipe tobacco producer has to submit, including enviromental impact studies, water quality readouts, etc.

 

[Peter Turbo]

I couldn't care less