Info About Dunhill's "Not For Sale" Pipes

[beefeater33]

Hey............. let's all take a deep breath............ let dreamers dream........... There is really no evidence, yet, that it's not a "lunchbox Dunhill"............ The slot, tenon, etc will tell the tale...........
for now, let's just let the story unfold............

 

[The Amish Tyrant]

That poor dead horse...think of how it must feel.

But what if the horse gets up?

 

[sasquatch]

Yeah I mean, what did Chuang-tzu know about Taosim???

 

[jguss]

Hmmm. Damned the torpedos, full speed ahead...

Yes, that works.

"You'll find no "evidence" because you haven't a fucking clue what you're looking for and won't accept anything at all as evidence against your silly story."

No, that is unnecessary because one, it is not a life or death moment, and two, the argument was already made magnificently without the use of profanity.

Words should elevate our logic, not bastardize it. But feel free to fuck'in disagree with me. LOL

Reasonable people can disagree on this subject. The French approach is emblematic of a drive towards linguistic purity that is fundamentally sterile. English has always been a language where usage ultimately drives diction and grammar, and personally I think this enriches our culture. I’m not suggesting sermons should be laced with vulgarity (although perhaps fewer parishioners would fall asleep if they were); I’m only saying profanity plays an important and hallowed role in conversation, argument, and literature.

 

[telescopes]

Reasonable people can disagree on this subject. The French approach is emblematic of a drive towards linguistic purity that is fundamentally sterile. English has always been a language where usage ultimately drives diction and grammar, and personally I think this enriches our culture. I’m not suggesting sermons should be laced with vulgarity (although perhaps fewer parishioners would fall asleep if they were); I’m only saying profanity plays an important and hallowed role in conversation, argument, and literature.

Maybe to a point, but all too often the role it plays is more hollow than hallowed.

I personally believe figurative language such as idioms, personification, rhyme, and allegory are more apt at making a point. But when all else fails,...."Damed the torpedos, full speed ahead"

 

[sasquatch]

We are simply attempting to "blend in" as it were, and sound more like a commoner with the addition of certain colorful colloquialisms.

 

[sablebrush52]

If this man is mistaken, I’ve gained a wonderful curiosity of what might be the only known counterfeit of a luxury item where the counterfeiter deliberately prevented it from being passed off as genuine.

But I’m expecting a “lunch box special” Dunhill. That’s the simplest explanation.

Facts not in evidence, counselor. Where is it evident that the seller is the forger?

Stamping it NOT FOR SALE without Dunhill stamps under it, meant only a hillbilly lawyer who shaves with Occam’s Razor every day, might buy it, and then for a dime on the dollar.

Evidently, one did.

The seller claims it’s a high quality pipe.

I have a bridge for sale that spans the East River. It's a high quality bridge.

And if it’s fake, then why not stamp it Dunhill?

What do you imagine is the more familiar set of stamps, or more difficult to fake?

I need an expert on Dunhills.

You've had one on this thread. And he's explained why it's not the genuine article. And you haven't listened.

I’ve spent a lifetime making a living assessing the credibility of statements..

We all have things in our past that we have to live down.

 

[telescopes]

Mr. Lee makes his case as any lawyer might. The court of law is not a court of truth and I think people forget that.

I was the Forman of a jury that sat over a murder trial where two young men were accused of murder.

The facts were never in question. The young men committed the murder. A young man died at their hands. This point was never disputed.

What was disputed was their guilt.

The jury deliberated for two days. It was doubtful at times whether the boys would be found guilty even though the fact of what they did was NOT in question nor was it disputed by their lawyers. What was in dispute was their mental state - were they justifiably angry with a boy whom they had NO dispute with at the time of the murder.

Anyway, it was 3:00 on a Friday afternoon and the trial had lasted a month. We wanted to go home.

The young men were found guilty.
Suppositions mattered, not facts.

Could the men have been justifiably angry? Could they simply have had too much to drink and simply behaved in a manner they later regretted?

Maybe, shoulda, coulda, ....

Maybe they thought the other young man sold them a forgery of a pipe and that was too much to take in.

Lawyers....

Shakespear.

 

[telescopes]

@sablebrush52 , do you think our friend, @Briar Lee, would have found a better home in Hollywood working as a screen writer?

 

[sablebrush52]

@sablebrush52 , do you think our friend, @Briar Lee, would have found a better home in Hollywood working as a screen writer?

Well sir, he can sure spin a tale. Just lacking the whittlin' knife.

 

[mingc]

What a sad thread. I think OP should just go the whole hog in and deem the pipe to have been made by Lars Ivarsson. There's just as much evidence that he did as it was made by an unknown carver at Dunhill. After all, it is obviously a high quality pipe.

 

[Ahi Ka]

@sasquatch isn’t the “metric of authentic whiteness” a colonial tool known as blood quantum levels…

also, how has nobody jumped on @Briar Lee suggestion that the pipe in question ended up in Germany during a tour of duty? This would make it patent era.

Thus, my position is that it is not a fake Dunhill, but rather a legit one that was in the process of being made while the factory was bombed. Any lack of nomenclature, or variation in shape or design is due to the bombing.

 

[Briar Lee]

Occam's razor cuts both ways, which is one reason it's not an especially useful tool in philosophy. If simplicity is our guide for theory selection, then the simplest theory, which is that someone drilled a white dot into an unstamped pipe, should be preferred.

The truth is, we don't have any idea where that pipe was made. Until we see telltale signs of production in the Dunhill facility (again, tenon, slotting, mortise size and shape etc) the jury is "out" at best. But the jury has already quite rightly decided - Not a Dunhill stem, not a Dunhill finish, not a Dunhill shape... why are we still assuming it's a Dunhill?

The pipes I pictured above have white dots. Which is a Dunhill?

If that White Spot pipe was found in possession of the executor of the estate of a daughter of a Dunhill employee, Occam would not need a razor.

Even if it had been home production, we’d know who produced it, and where he stole his materials.

I own a Calabash pipe with a fixed meerschaum bowl that looks almost new. It’s stamped H H, and the silver band was hallmarked in Birmingham in 1911.

I’ve forgotten when and where I bought that pipe, but that mount was made in Birmingham England in 1911.

Let’s see how authentic the White Spot appears on a high quality briar pipe, found in Bavaria Germany.

 

[ssjones]

This thread has activationized my suspicionizer that Kevin hires secret InterWebz agents to create threads that walk the fine conversational line between silly enough to be entertaining while sticking to its topic enough to avoid locking.

The more I think about it the more likely it seems, in fact.

I mean, spotting real Dunhills is not rocket science, and we're four pages and a week into it...

Nah, but sometimes we just get lucky.

 

[sasquatch]

Now I'm being shown ANOTHER pipe also not made by Dunhill, also with a white dot, as evidence that a different pipe not made by Dunhill is a Dunhill? Even clear-thinking Occam would have been lost by that one.

Let's back up to my picture of two pipes near identical in size, shape and color. One a Dunhill, one not. A Dunhill expert like George would look at the picture for 1 second and say "Oh, the pipe in the background is a sandblast, but the chamber is totally clean. Therefore it wasn't oil cured, therefore it's not an old shell." Which would be right. And yet there's a high-quality white dot in the stem, something that apparently couldn't exist. That correct assessment takes a guy like George about 4 seconds. We do it all the time when someone shows up on facebook or even mails us a pipe in some cases.

My point in all this is that we need no philosophy nor story-telling when we authenticate a pipe as a Dunhill, or a Barling, or a Chonowitsch. We look to certain obvious physical markers which if missing (or present, depending on the marker) rule out how, where, and when the pipe was manufactured. There's no speculating necessary. A pipe that withstands such scrutiny is deemed genuine, a pipe which fails such scrutiny deemed false.


Real Dunhill?





Absolutely not. Stamped with a lettering set so letters in words are crooked. Stem is stamped which is highly odd (but not unknown). The stem is not a Dunhill shaped stem, it's a replacement-grade pre-made stem, the shape is simply wrong. But the biggest most obvious, most immediate reason to cry foul is that the pipe is.... not a sandblast. It's rusticated. Dunhill never, ever sold a tool-textured pipe, and the zigzags on the bowl are just that. So it's a fail. This stuff's really easy to see once you know what to look for.

 

[saltedplug]

I think one could spend days, maybe weeks, considering all the positions/arguments that have been made, as well as weighing the personality that made them. When I read a thread I move at a pace, never thinking that more attention is needed. But this thread is different.

 

[sablebrush52]

If that White Spot pipe was found in possession of the executor of the estate of a daughter of a Dunhill employee, Occam would not need a razor.

Even if it had been home production, we’d know who produced it, and where he stole his materials.

I own a Calabash pipe with a fixed meerschaum bowl that looks almost new. It’s stamped H H, and the silver band was hallmarked in Birmingham in 1911.

I’ve forgotten when and where I bought that pipe, but that mount was made in Birmingham England in 1911.

Let’s see how authentic the White Spot appears on a high quality briar pipe, found in Bavaria Germany.

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Who here thinks that Briar Lee is having us on, that this whole "Sergeant York" routine is simply a wheeze he's come up with, that his "farm" is in the Hamptons, and that the only way he'd smoke a Pipe By Lee is if he was facing the business end of a Glock? BTW, the calabash is missing its top plate.

As for the hypothetical provenance posed by the purported Briar Lee, none of that means diddly squat, since it's merely circumstantial. What's needed is a photograph, accompanied by the original negative, of Richard Dunhill holding the pipe in question close up so that it can be authenticated.

What I really want to know about is Briar Lee's involvement with the recently discovered purported "Caravaggio" that originally was to go on auction at a mere $1800? An Italian Renaissance painting that's priced at $1800 has to be a real piece of crap. But suddenly a Caravaggio "scholar" proclaims it a genuine Caravaggio and now the $1800 painting is worth $100,000,000? Same piece of crap painting, and no proof except the opinion of a few "scholars". Why wouldn't that really mean that all Caravaggios should sell for a couple of G's, tops? So what is your involvement in this affair, Briar Lee? Did you masquerade as all of the Caravaggio scholars? Are you taking a percentage of the proceeds for the sale of this...Caravaggio? About time to fess up.

 

[telescopes]

Who here thinks that Briar Lee is having us on, that this whole "Sergeant York" routine is simply a wheeze he's come up with, that his "farm" is in the Hamptons, and that the only way he'd smoke a Pipe By Lee is if he was facing the business end of a Glock? BTW, the calabash is missing its top plate.

As for the hypothetical provenance posed by the purported Briar Lee, none of that means diddly squat, since it's merely circumstantial. What's needed is a photograph, accompanied by the original negative, of Richard Dunhill holding the pipe in question close up so that it can be authenticated.

What I really want to know about is Briar Lee's involvement with the recently discovered purported "Caravaggio" that originally was to go on auction at a mere $1800? An Italian Renaissance painting that's priced at $1800 has to be a real piece of crap. But suddenly a Caravaggio "scholar" proclaims it a genuine Caravaggio and now the $1800 painting is worth $100,000,000? Same piece of crap painting, and no proof except the opinion of a few "scholars". Why wouldn't that really mean that all Caravaggios should sell for a couple of G's, tops? So what is your involvement in this affair, Briar Lee? Did you masquerade as all of the Caravaggio scholars? Are you taking a percentage of the proceeds for the sale of this...Caravaggio? About time to fess up.

You are on to something. Just as there is no evidence as to who Lee was, there is no real evidence that there is a lawyer in Humansville, Missouri smoking oddles of Pipe by Lee pipes. What is known is that he tells the same stories on forums about shotguns. He is as evasive and mysterious as a Yokum silver dollar or the stranger from Chicago in Harold Bell Wright’s fabled book.

 

[Briar Lee]

Hey............. let's all take a deep breath............ let dreamers dream........... There is really no evidence, yet, that it's not a "lunchbox Dunhill"............ The slot, tenon, etc will tell the tale...........
for now, let's just let the story unfold............

Here’s a guaranteed genuine early 7 point 3 Star grade Lee.

Beside it, are two other Lee products, a Briarlee and a Pipe Maker.

Of the three, the pipe judged at Lee to be “NOT FOR SALE AS A LEE OF ANY KIND” is stamped as a Pipe Maker, has a blue spot bullseye trade mark, and a highly polished stem, probably of low grade cast nylon or vulcanite, and a cheaper full metal ring front screw stem.

But I have a drawer with many dozens of Lee stingers, few the same pattern, but which any one will fit them all.

Remember every workman at Lee was trying to make a $25 grade Five Star. But I’m convinced the worker first carved out the briar front part, to a certain pattern (Lee didn’t use numbers) then the pipe was graded as Lee, Briarlee, or Pipe Maker, and the last thing made was the stem, a push stem for Briarlee, and a Kaywoodie type screw stem for Pipe Maker.

In the last two Lee series, the stamped stars got pretty sloppy, and were gold filled, but they were only put on Lee Star Grade pipe stems, never the briar.

But Lee only used the best workers to stem up a Lee Star Grade.

If I ever find Lee Stars on a Pipe Maker stem, then I know somebody took a Lee stem and fitted it to a no name Pipe Maker.

But if I find a Lee Star grade stem on a piece of Lee oil cured briar in a known Lee shape, that’s a lunch box special.

Even if stamped “NOT FOR SALE”.

I suspect the last stamps are placed on the briar itself, after final polishing and staining.

To us, they are pipes. To the maker, it’s a piece of briar joined to a stem, a finished product, all on the same line, but for a Lee the price range was $1 to $25 for exactly the same product, depending on quality of briar.

 

[sablebrush52]

Here’s a guaranteed genuine early 7 point 3 Star grade Lee.

Beside it, are two other Lee products, a Briarlee and a Pipe Maker.

Of the three, the pipe judged at Lee to be “NOT FOR SALE AS A LEE OF ANY KIND” is stamped as a Pipe Maker, has a blue spot bullseye trade mark, and a highly polished stem, probably of low grade cast nylon or vulcanite, and a cheaper full metal ring front screw stem.

But I have a drawer with many dozens of Lee stingers, few the same pattern, but which any one will fit them all.

Remember every workman at Lee was trying to make a $25 grade Five Star. But I’m convinced the worker first carved out the briar front part, to a certain pattern (Lee didn’t use numbers) then the pipe was graded as Lee, Briarlee, or Pipe Maker, and the last thing made was the stem, a push stem for Briarlee, and a Kaywoodie type screw stem for Pipe Maker.

In the last two Lee series, the stamped stars got pretty sloppy, and were gold filled, but they were only put on Lee Star Grade pipe stems, never the briar.

But Lee only used the best workers to stem up a Lee Star Grade.

If I ever find Lee Stars on a Pipe Maker stem, then I know somebody took a Lee stem and fitted it to a no name Pipe Maker.

But if I find a Lee Star grade stem on a piece of Lee oil cured briar in a known Lee shape, that’s a lunch box special.

Even if stamped “NOT FOR SALE”.

I suspect the last stamps are placed on the briar itself, after final polishing and staining.

To us, they are pipes. To the maker, it’s a piece of briar joined to a stem, a finished product, all on the same line, but for a Lee the price range was $1 to $25 for exactly the same product, depending on quality of briar.

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I think I've figured this out. Briar Lee is an AI experiment. We have been hacked.