Info About Dunhill's "Not For Sale" Pipes

[georged]

A recent thread about a "Not For Sale"-stamped pipe was closed because it was a completed sale.

I thought you guys might want more info about the "line" because they come up occasionally on Ebay & etc.

The story is they are fully completed and finished pipes that get set aside on rare occasions because their final QA inspection finds something that isn't up to standard. It's minor, but still a deal-breaker for that specific piece.

They are considered good enough to be used by the mangement (primarily) as giveaway "thank you" tokens, however. Their nomenclature is OVER stamped with "Not For Sale" to make clear that they failed final QA to prevent them from entering normal retail channels.

I'm sure of this because I was given one by Dunhill London---the home shop---15 years ago for some assistance I provided concerning a DR series pipe that had been returned to them by Music City Marketing, Dunhill's USA rep at the time, via Chris Felts. I asked about and received the full story of the Not For Sale "line" at that time.

My point in this thread is to alert potential buyers of Not For Sale pieces on the Interweb that a pipe with ONLY that stamp is not legit. It's simply a case of someone buying such a stamp and adding a white dot to an otherwise unmarked basket pipe in an effort to deceive. The pipe equivalent of the Nigerian investment scam.

Here is a pic of what legitimate stamping looks like, as well as its placement, as a future reference for shoppers:

PS --- The letter "C" stands for "complimentary"

 

[Briar Lee]

When my NOT FOR SALE white spot pipe arrives, I intend to give it a full review.

There is no luxury good ever made, that isn’t forged.

But the white spot is trade dress for Dunhill pipes, the same as the crown is for a Rolex.

It is obviously, a very well made, well polished, high quality smooth briar pipe.

If I were using the white spot, and the briar and the skills to forge a Dunhill, i also could stamp it as a Dunhill, and have a very much better chance of selling it at higher prices.

On the other hand, if I were a manager at Dunhill, if a pipe didn’t make the grade I’d likely stamp and sell it as a Parker.

If I wanted to hand out freebies, I’d be inclined to not mark it all all except NOT FOR SALE.

We shall see.

I might have paid too much for my whistle, as the old saying goes, but I’m buying a beautiful whistle, which ever way it is.

 

[sablebrush52]

The lack of nomenclature on that “NOT FOR SALE” pipe was something that instantly felt wrong about it.

 

[georged]

If I were using the white spot, and the briar and the skills to forge a Dunhill, i also could stamp it as a Dunhill, and have a very much better chance of selling it at higher prices.

But they didn't have the skills. The pipe you're talking about---except for the dot---isn't close enough to an acceptable forgery to be referred to as one. The stem is wrong in both side and top profile, and the button is wrong. I'm willing to bet that the slot is also (because anyone who could fake that wouldn't have made the profile errors.)

On the other hand, if I were a manager at Dunhill, if a pipe didn’t make the grade I’d likely stamp and sell it as a Parker.

The people in charge at their shop explained the process to me, and what you suggest is definitely not how they did it. (fwiw, downgraded Dunhills stopped being sold as Parkers about 70 years ago)

 

[orlandofurioso]

Thank you for sharing George, it is much appreciated and I believe we heard little of you lately ?
I own a lovely straight grained somewhat burgundy stained JU C graded pipe.
When I consulted the late and much lamented Ken Barnes ( we exchanged mail on regular basis ) he
told me it was a high graded Company pipe offered to their dealer in Rome .
I miss him an immense lot.

 

[Briar Lee]

But they didn't have the skills. The pipe you're talking about---except for the dot---isn't close enough to an acceptable forgery to be referred to as one. The stem is wrong in both side and top profile, and the button is wrong. I'm willing to bet that the slot is also (because anyone who could fake that wouldn't have made the profile errors.)



The people in charge at their shop explained the process to me, and what you suggest is definitely not how they did it. (fwiw, downgraded Dunhills stopped being sold as Parkers about 70 years ago)

I didn’t know they quit making Parkers.

I suppose they realized that Dunhill customers would be looking for cheap Dunhills.

I trust and believe the back story on a properly stamped Dunhill being over stamped with NOT FOR SALE and given as a thank you to somebody who helped the Dunhill company. That makes sense, too. How were those born?

There are workers making Dunhill pipes, and they have a final inspector (hopefully not the pipe maker). Some are rejected after completion. The worst ones go into a shop stove, but some are still worthy presents.

I bought the White Spot NOT FOR SALE for not much more than I’d pay for an unstamped basket pipe, for these reasons:

1. The seller was not peddling pipes on a street corner. He’s a fellow pipe enthusiast. He changed his listing. But he thinks it’s genuine, and at worst he was deceived. I’m NOT buying a Dunhill stamped pipe.

2. I can spare the small price I paid , and not die of melancholy if it’s fake. Shipping from Germany is a chunk of the price.

3. Whoever made it, put a White Spot on it. If it’s not a Dunhill, or if Dunhill made it, there’s one more curious thing that simply must have occurred:

There is a White Spot pipe, fully finished,,

Hmmm, thinks the maker,,,

Let’s intentionally sabotage the resale by stamping it NOT FOR SALE

If he’s a forger, there will be way more money trying to pass it off as a genuine first Dunhill.

But let’s say it’s a new worker at Dunhill.

He puts the White Spot on it.

The bit is a little wrong.

He doesn’t stamp it Dunhill.

He stamps it NOT FOR SALE.

And it leaves Dunhill as for what such things left other factories years ago, and maybe today, as a “lunch box special”.

4. I’m secretly larcenous. I hope that’s really a Dunhill for a fraction of the Dunhill price.

But at the worst I have a good story and another nice pipe for my stash.


5. I represent the manufacturer of the finest arial wire marking sphere on earth, the original and best. Those are those orange balls pilots are familiar with that mark wires.

I have those orange balls everywhere on my farm, used for targets, planters, or to mark things (except wires).

All are marked NOT FOR SALE

Each one was a gift from my dear friend who invented the ball, to me.

I bought this pipe, to remember him.

 

[wyfbane]

I didn’t know they quit making Parkers.

He didn't say that. They just aren't downgraded Dunhills anymore.

 

[Briar Lee]

He didn't say that. They just aren't downgraded Dunhills anymore.

I do not collect pipes. Collectors have a purpose, a plan, and some goal. I like lots and lots of pipes.

I own a whole bunch of Pipes by Lee.

Lee advertised and sold two sub brands. One is a Stroller, and if I ever see a good one I’ll buy it. The other is Briarlee, which is my favorite Lee made pipe for this reason:

A Briarlee will have grain that you can show off. They look extremely flashy. And, they will also have some carvings or a few tiny fills, and most have push stems , although I saw one the other day for sale with a screw stem.

What a Briarlee was, quite obviously, was a pipe Lee was making for at least a four star or five star grade that didn’t quite make the grade.

No books exist on Lee pipes, and the Lee stars don’t even come close to giving the enthusiast joy to see a Kaywoodie Shamrock or a Dunhill White Spot on a pipe.

But there must have been a man making pipes, who marketed them as Star Grade Pipes by Lee. Maybe Lee was his wife, or even his dog, or his dead father’s name. They were distributed by the Stuart Allen Company. But let’s call him Lee.

Lee could not possibly have made 100% firsts.

If Lee contracted his production (like Mastercraft) his supplier could not have made 100% firsts.

I can’t prove it, but Lee had a silent, unadvertised sub brand named simply “Pipe Maker”.

I own maybe a half dozen “Pipe Maker” brand pipes.

Lee made a lot of a smaller Pear shape, and on my desk are about a dozen of them. Each one has tiny differences, all taste like heaven, because of Lee’s oil cure, all are perfect pipes.

Two are stamped Pipe Maker. They have plainer grain, a few fills, and darker stain. But they are Lees in all but name.

But, there’s one Lee with only two stars with a button not as perfect as the others. I filed on it a little, and it’s perfect now.

Where are Parker pipes made?

 

[SmokeClouds]

Thank you for the information George. I do have one of these pipes, which smokes very well, and always wondered about the nomenclature.

 

[kcghost]

As usual , George is very informative on old pipes.

 

[sablebrush52]

I didn’t know they quit making Parkers.

I suppose they realized that Dunhill customers would be looking for cheap Dunhills.

I trust and believe the back story on a properly stamped Dunhill being over stamped with NOT FOR SALE and given as a thank you to somebody who helped the Dunhill company. That makes sense, too. How were those born?

There are workers making Dunhill pipes, and they have a final inspector (hopefully not the pipe maker). Some are rejected after completion. The worst ones go into a shop stove, but some are still worthy presents.

I bought the White Spot NOT FOR SALE for not much more than I’d pay for an unstamped basket pipe, for these reasons:

1. The seller was not peddling pipes on a street corner. He’s a fellow pipe enthusiast. He changed his listing. But he thinks it’s genuine, and at worst he was deceived. I’m NOT buying a Dunhill stamped pipe.

2. I can spare the small price I paid , and not die of melancholy if it’s fake. Shipping from Germany is a chunk of the price.

3. Whoever made it, put a White Spot on it. If it’s not a Dunhill, or if Dunhill made it, there’s one more curious thing that simply must have occurred:

There is a White Spot pipe, fully finished,,

Hmmm, thinks the maker,,,

Let’s intentionally sabotage the resale by stamping it NOT FOR SALE

If he’s a forger, there will be way more money trying to pass it off as a genuine first Dunhill.

But let’s say it’s a new worker at Dunhill.

He puts the White Spot on it.

The bit is a little wrong.

He doesn’t stamp it Dunhill.

He stamps it NOT FOR SALE.

And it leaves Dunhill as for what such things left other factories years ago, and maybe today, as a “lunch box special”.

4. I’m secretly larcenous. I hope that’s really a Dunhill for a fraction of the Dunhill price.

But at the worst I have a good story and another nice pipe for my stash.


5. I represent the manufacturer of the finest arial wire marking sphere on earth, the original and best. Those are those orange balls pilots are familiar with that mark wires.

I have those orange balls everywhere on my farm, used for targets, planters, or to mark things (except wires).

All are marked NOT FOR SALE

Each one was a gift from my dear friend who invented the ball, to me.

I bought this pipe, to remember him.

It's great that you have personal reasons to be happy with your NOT FOR SALE pipe that are independent of whether it's a real Dunhill or not. That's the essential win win situation.

Keep in mind that the lack of nomenclature is proof that it's not the genuine article. Stamps are added before final staining and polishing, so well before the final quality inspection or the addition of a NOT FOR SALE stamp.

The seller probably didn't know the pipe is a fake. There is a level of knowledge and expertise that a few people, like George, have that goes far beyond the vast majority of collectors and pipe smokers. In the case of Dunhill, George not only collects them, he's restored literally thousands of them. That a level of intimacy that is not shared by any outside the factory.

Politics is one area where everybody gets to be a self made expert. Listen to enough talking heads on the radio or cable TV telling you how to think and you're all set. Pipes and tobaccos don't work that way. It requires real effort to develop expertise. You're digging and digging to find reputable sources for information, collecting catalogs, reading through industry trade publications, etc, etc. In George's case, physically dealing with the actual product day after day, year after year. With Jon, thousands of hours spent scouring library collections of industry related information and finding documentation where it exists.

BTW, there are people who collect Dunhill fakes, as it's a small subcategory of Dunhill mania that a few collectors find really amusing, like the smooth pipes stamped "shell" and the Dunhill factory made fakes turned out by factory workers "on the side".

 

[warren]

One can always count on George to, thankfully in the fewest words possible, lay out the true "nitty-gritty." Thanks George!

 

[hauntedmyst]

The people in charge at their shop explained the process to me, and what you suggest is definitely not how they did it. (fwiw, downgraded Dunhills stopped being sold as Parkers about 70 years ago)

Even as a huge Dunhill fan and owner, this is the one part of the Dunhill story that makes no sense to me from a business perspective. As a high grade manufacturer, it make perfect sense to have a seconds line. I'm not sure of the exact figure but recall something to the effect of "only 7% of pipes are good enough to be called Dunhill". I may be off but its definitely within that range, which means they are/were throwing away 93% of their briar inventory. Of that 93%, it makes financial sense to salvage that loss with a seconds line. If they aren't doing it, where are those rejects going? Into the fire? To other manufacturers? Are they buying perfect bowls from other manufacturers and finishing them as Dunhills?

 

[captainsousie]

Even as a huge Dunhill fan and owner, this is the one part of the Dunhill story that makes no sense to me from a business perspective. As a high grade manufacturer, it make perfect sense to have a seconds line. I'm not sure of the exact figure but recall something to the effect of "only 7% of pipes are good enough to be called Dunhill". I may be off but its definitely within that range, which means they are/were throwing away 93% of their briar inventory. Of that 93%, it makes financial sense to salvage that loss with a seconds line. If they aren't doing it, where are those rejects going? Into the fire? To other manufacturers? Are they buying perfect bowls from other manufacturers and finishing them as Dunhills?

Honestly there are a lot of examples of manufacturers who refuse to "dilute the brand" with a seconds line. For example, while the Fender company makes guitars ranging from the $200 Squier to the $8,000, the Rickenbacker company has refused to make a "seconds" line for many decades. Consequently, the resale value of a Fender custom shop guitar is a fraction of its retail price while a used Rickenbacker will resell for close to or exceeding retail. There are many other examples but higher end goods work on a different philosophy than middle-level consumer goods.

 

[mso489]

Interesting thread. I'm not a Dunhill guy, but always wondered if there were any actual Dunhill seconds, and this sounds as close as they come. I always assumed they consigned quality control rejects to the crusher, just to maintain their brand. As the late, great foggymountain pointed out, there is a serious difference in the quality of the pipes they do sell. He had a list of the good and the bad, but not being a Dunhill buyer, I didn't save that. My memory is that at the time he was buying mostly smooth finish series in the prince shape. He sold Dunhills as a teenager in Manhattan pipe shops back when Kaywoodie was the premier pipe, with Dunhill running second.

 

[warren]

I'm guessing a lot of so-called seconds were passed to new, neophyte carver-employees to learn their trade on.

 

[sablebrush52]

Different companies had different ways of handling briar that didn't measure up to their top standard. Sasieni and Comoy had robust lines of 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, etc, private label pipes for tobacco stores, etc.
Barling had an interest, or ownership in the Portland Pipe company, also had a line called Cragmoor. Since Barling harvested their wood for many years, rather than buying through brokers, it wouldn't surprise me if they also sold off "lesser" wood to other makers.

 

[Briar Lee]

He didn't say that. They just aren't downgraded Dunhills anymore.

I'm not a Dunhill guy, but always wondered if there were any actual Dunhill seconds, and this sounds as close as they come. I always assumed they consigned quality control rejects to the crusher, just to maintain their brand. As the late, great foggymountain pointed out, there is a serious difference in the quality of the pipes they do sell.

————-

I own a Japanese made Fender Jumbo acoustic guitar. It’s a genuine Fender. It’s worth about the same $700 I paid for it in 1996 on my 38th birthday.

I also own a genuine Martin HD-28, with an interesting story. I had a friend that coveted my Japanese Fender and another guitar owned, a Guild stamped on the neck as USED.

He called me one morning, and said there was a Martin HD-28 for sale on the University of Missouri employee web portal for $500. Could that be genuine, he asked?

I replied it was made last week in China,,,,no way $500 buys the real one.

That evening I went to his house, there was the HD-28, with a hard shell case marked Martin, a receipt that had the guitar, the case, a tuner, and a high end capo, all matching except the previous owner had corrected the last serial number of the guitar with a ball point pen on the receipt.

Beside that was a fresh email from the store they sold the same HD-28 on such and such a day, to the previous owner.

We both laughed and said, that guy should have either thrown away the receipt or asked for a letter.

He later joined the Mennonite church, and he gave me the HD-28. Then after awhile, he died of cancer.

I have no idea if my Guild is really a genuine guitar made by Guild.

But somebody sure stamped it as USED.

Did they intentionally sabotage the resale value?

When my White Spot NOT FOR SALE arrives, I want to see a fake Dunhill made by a half honest forger.

He was crooked enough to forge a White Spot.

But then his conscience must have gripped him, and he refused to forge the stamp.

We’ll see.

 

[wyfbane]

Honestly there are a lot of examples of manufacturers who refuse to "dilute the brand" with a seconds line. For example, while the Fender company makes guitars ranging from the $200 Squier to the $8,000, the Rickenbacker company has refused to make a "seconds" line for many decades. Consequently, the resale value of a Fender custom shop guitar is a fraction of its retail price while a used Rickenbacker will resell for close to or exceeding retail. There are many other examples but higher end goods work on a different philosophy than middle-level consumer goods.

True, Pappy Van Winkle distillers are trying to have their whiskey that was recovered from a theft destroyed since it can not be guaranteed that it wasn't tampered with and they don't want tainted liquor to ruin their rep.

 

[georged]

The endless speculations about the forgery of goods by people who do not understand, and therefore appreciate, the technical aspects in play are endlessly entertaining.

I'll cut to the chase with forgery as it impacts the PipeWorld.

Pipes aren't worth enough for convincing forgeries to EXIST. The end.

Watches, paintings, sculpture, stamps, coins, and so forth certainly can be, but pipes? No.

Sotheby's and Christies don't even bother with them. Pipes don't bring in enough to be worth their time.

Which then makes clear that if someone had the ability to convincingly replicate a given high grade pipe, he'd have the necessary skills to make pipes under his own name... and make more money without risk.

Copying something to a high enough standard to fool experts is excrutiatingly exacting in every field, for technical reasons. In the PipeWorld it is literally impossible without extensive experimentation, special tools and techniques, etc. None of which are necessary when creating pipes under your own brand. Then, you can do anything you want any way you want, and charge whatever you want for it.

So. The only "forgeries" out there are of the Nigerian Scam type, which appeal to "low information" buyers.

The only exception to this are some "fake" Dunhills that are forgeries only in a technical sense. Made in the 1980's by some disgruntled shop workers who made pipes after hours and pocketed them to sell on their own. Authentic Dunhill materials, made in the Dunhill shop, and produced by legit Dunhill staffers... but they were not authorized production.

Ironically (and entertainingly), today, they are worth quite a bit more for being so. What gives them away? As much time as necessary was taken to produce them---no "assembly line style" workstation timer hurried things along---so they are BETTER specimens than normal output in telling ways. [now that's funny rat thar, don't care who yar... ]