Info About Dunhill's "Not For Sale" Pipes

[captainsousie]

The endless speculations about the forgery of goods by people who do not understand, and therefore appreciate, the technical aspects in play are endlessly entertaining.

I'll cut to the chase with forgery as it impacts the PipeWorld.

Pipes aren't worth enough for convincing forgeries to EXIST. The end.

Watches, paintings, sculpture, stamps, coins, and so forth certainly can be, but pipes? No.

Sotheby's and Christies don't even bother with them. Pipes don't bring in enough to be worth their time.

Which then makes clear that if someone had the ability to convincingly replicate a given high grade pipe, he'd have the necessary skills to make pipes under his own name... and make more money without risk.

Copying something to a high enough standard to fool experts is excrutiatingly exacting in every field, for technical reasons. In the PipeWorld it is literally impossible without extensive experimentation, special tools and techniques, etc. None of which are necessary when creating pipes under your own brand. Then, you can do anything you want any way you want, and charge whatever you want for it.

So. The only "forgeries" out there are of the Nigerian Scam type, which appeal to "low information" buyers.

The only exception to this are some "fake" Dunhills that are forgeries only in a technical sense. Made in the 1980's by some disgruntled shop workers who made pipes after hours and pocketed them to sell on their own. Authentic Dunhill materials, made in the Dunhill shop, and produced by legit Dunhill staffers... but they were not authorized production.

Ironically (and entertainingly), today, they are worth quite a bit more for being so. What gives them away? As much time as necessary was taken to produce them---no "assembly line style" workstation timer hurried things along---so they are BETTER specimens than normal output in telling ways. [now that's funny rat thar, don't care who yar... ]

There are, in my recollection, a few more convinving examples of Sino-Asian forgeries which appeared about 5-10 years back of super high-end pipes. Most of these being of $10,000+ pipes. However most did not make their way into the American or European markets so we haven't had much of a chance to study them.

You're spot on though.

 

[georged]

There are, in my recollection, a few more convinving examples of Sino-Asian forgeries which appeared about 5-10 years back of super high-end pipes. Most of these being of $10,000+ pipes. However most did not make their way into the American or European markets so we haven't had much of a chance to study them.

You're spot on though.

What makes that approach virtually impossible is that a high percentage of history's uber carvers are either still alive, or, if not, they had plenty of friends, collectors, apprentices, sons, daughters, etc. who are. Meaning there is no shortage of people who can verify the legitimacy of a piece. I've even been involved (peripherally) in such investigations several times.

The attempt you speak of to get over on the high end guys was barely more sophisticated than the "put a white dot on a basket pipe" stuff. The only difference was an actual carver (or several) produced one-off pieces from better quality materials. They were still obvious fakes, though.

That none have been seen since would suggest the wannebe counterfeiters moved on to items that were less of a PITA to get "right".

 

[captainsousie]

What makes that approach virtually impossible is that a high percentage of history's uber carvers are either still alive, or, if not, they had plenty of friends, collectors, apprentices, sons, daughters, etc. who are. Meaning there is no shortage of people who can verify the legitimacy of a piece. I've even been involved (peripherally) in such investigations several times.

The attempt you speak of to get over on the high end guys was barely more sophisticated than the "put a white dot on a basket pipe" stuff. The only difference was an actual carver (or several) produced one-off pieces from better quality materials. They were still obvious fakes, though.

That none have been seen since would suggest the wannebe counterfeiters moved on to items that were less of a PITA to get "right".

You are correct. They caused consternation for about 6 months and have not reappeared. Just trying to add to the pipe forgery conversation.

 

[Briar Lee]

What I want to see when my pipe arrives, first of all, is the White Spot.

A White Spot on a pipe stem is a Dunhill trade mark, same as a Kissing Crane stamped on a pocket knife blade.

The hand that inserted that White Spot into a pipe stem either had, or did not have, legal authority to put that trademark on that pipe stem.

The stem is fitted to a finished briar pipe.

The hand that finished the briar deliberately desecrated it by stamping it NOT FOR SALE.

If the White Spot appears correct, as I believe it will, then the odds are the briar portion was made by the same artisan who got the materials at Dunhill, in London England.

A famous leather snake boot is made by a man who owns a shoe repair shop I patronize.

With the full consent and knowledge of his employer, I own a pair of those leather snake boots, from the maker to me, directly.

But there’s not one mark on them,

He says they were custom made but returned.

I have a bunch of leather shoes he made at work and they gave them to him, and he’s passed them on to me.

He keeps my Allan Edmond shoes in perfect repair.

This NOT FOR SALE White Spot pipe has intriguing back story, which we likely won’t ever know what it was.

My problem is I’ve never held a genuine Dunhill. I’m a cheapskate about pipes, and most other luxury goods.

But others can help me, examine that White Spot, I’ll bet.

 

[sandollars]

I can professionally install a Mercedes "Star" on a Hyundai, it's pretty easy but it doesn't make it a Mercedes simply because "Only Mercedes cars have Mercedes Stars".

Georged is one of the very few expert pipe people on this forum and the Dunhill brand is one of his specialties. Most people seek out (and pay) for his expert opinion and services.

Being a former jeweler, I can tell you that I could put a "White Spot" on any pipe stem of your choice in a matter of minutes with the same quality of construction and perfect finish as the trademark holder. You would not be able to discern a difference, even under a microscope.

TIP:
It won't be the "Dot" that will be tell-tale. of if it's real or not, it will be literally everything else...

I hope your pipe is a great smoker and that you get many years of enjoyment out of it. After all, pipes are fungible so it doesn't really matter anyway, right?

 

[sasquatch]

Vauen uses a white spot in Germany, has for ever and ever.

White spot means nothing. I have drilled a few myself.

There are a hundred tell-tale signs of a pipe made by Dunhill through the ages, the drilling, the button and slot work, the finish, other little technical details. The fact that the stem is wrong, the shape is wrong, and the finish not a Dunhill color are.... well, red flags.

 

[Briar Lee]

I can professionally install a Mercedes "Star" on a Hyundai, it's pretty easy but it doesn't make it a Mercedes simply because "Only Mercedes cars have Mercedes Stars".

Georged is one of the very few expert pipe people on this forum and the Dunhill brand is one of his specialties. Most people seek out (and pay) for his expert opinion and services.

Being a former jeweler, I can tell you that I could put a "White Spot" on any pipe stem of your choice in a matter of minutes with the same quality of construction and perfect finish as the trademark holder. You would not be able to discern a difference, even under a microscope.

TIP:
It won't be the "Dot" that will be tell-tale. of if it's real or not, it will be literally everything else...

I hope your pipe is a great smoker and that you get many years of enjoyment out of it. After all, pipes are fungible so it doesn't really matter anyway, right?

Thanks for your help.

I had no idea how easy it was for an artisan to install one White Spot.

But again, if that pipe was made at Dunhill, that White Spot should be perfect.

This Three Star (7 point) Lee is genuine.


I bought a push stem Lee once the seller claimed was a Second.

It was a first. The three stars were the third generation stamped, and the gold foil had rubbed off.

The Lee was properly stamped Pipe by Lee- Geniune Imported Briar and Limited Edition.

Besides that, it looked like a Lee and tasted like a Lee.

The first place I looked though, was that a very late push stem Lee, had better have stamped stars.

A Dunhill must have, a perfect spot.

 

[telescopes]

This is what an authentic Not for Sale Dunhill looks like.

 

[telescopes]

By the way, it is not a “second”. It is marked Dunhill and clearly marked as not for sale.

 

[kcghost]

George, you ought to tell them your famous "black spot" story instead of a white one on some Dunhills that a guy was telling you about.

 

[georged]

George, you ought to tell them your famous "black spot" story instead of a white one on some Dunhills that a guy was telling you about.

Ah, that.

At the Chicago show's semi-formal banquet/awards dinner, the tables were all circular and large enough to seat 8-10 people comfortably. Since all the seats had to be filled, groups of friends and people who knew each other from around the world fragmented and invariably became mixed during the seating process.

A few years back I found myself at a table that was half people I knew, and the other half a group led by a cinematic-caliber guy and his wingmen from somewhere outside the US (I can't recall where). The meal's entertainment was conversation, of course, and after the usual introductions were wrapping up and subject shifted to "What Holy Grail item brings you to Chicago?" the faintly larger-than-life guy announced that he was in search of the seventh black dot Dunhill. That he already had the six others safely in his collection, and would never stop looking for the fabled #7.

Sideways glances clicked among the group I was with, but since the name of the game was politeness, decorum, camaraderie, and entertainment, no one interrupted.

He described how they had come to be, who they were originally made for and why, how they had become scattered around the world, and so forth. It was borderline Bond movie material. I was on the verge of thinking the guy was just having an elaborate bit of fun with us when one of his wingmen mentioned how much he'd paid for the six he had, and how much he'd be willing to pay for the seventh. A few probing questions made clear he wasn't joking.

A bit of an uncomfortable silence followed because the group I was with all knew the reality of "Black Spot Dunhills", and figured I'd probably have something to say about it.

I honestly can't remember if I let the Raiders of the Lost Ark-ish adventure narrative continue, or took a swing at offering an explanation and got stared down (i.e. glared down) by Cinematic Guy.

I clearly recall him saying at the end of the meal that the table's conversation had renewed his determination to find the elusive seventh pipe, though (because it had been made expressly for some king or other, was the story on that one, I think), so whatever I might have said had no effect in any event.

The entertaining bit, of course, is the actual reason Dunhill dots occasionally turn different colors, and---rarely---solid black.

It's simply because the hole for the dot was drilled too deeply, into the airway, and the celluloid rod glued into the hole then wicked the same crud you see on a pipecleaner every time you use one into the dot material like a sponge. The absorption happens slowly, of course, and depending on how often the pipe is smoked, swabbed with alcohol, etc., the discoloration process can take decades. But it always happens eventually. White becomes yellow which becomes tan which becomes saddle brown, etcetera, all the way to solid, pure black.

Another fun factoid is that they are indeed rare. Quite. And possibly more valuable to a certain kind of collector for it (though the cause of the dot's blackness---legitimate or artificial could be determined) would definitely present problems.

And that's it. No point to this story except as an example of depth of Colorful Characters that make up the PipeWorld.

Also, I suppose, it's a good example of why you shouldn't believe things simply because they make you feel good. (That guy had wasted thousands of dollars and was intent on wasting more)

 

[sablebrush52]

A White Spot on a pipe stem is a Dunhill trade mark, same as a Kissing Crane stamped on a pocket knife blade.

The hand that inserted that White Spot into a pipe stem either had, or did not have, legal authority to put that trademark on that pipe stem.

A forger doesn't care about legal authority.

The stem is fitted to a finished briar pipe.

The hand that finished the briar deliberately desecrated it by stamping it NOT FOR SALE.

A forger doesn't care about desecrating pipes.

If the White Spot appears correct, as I believe it will, then the odds are the briar portion was made by the same artisan who got the materials at Dunhill, in London England.

Nope. Most people wouldn't know a Dunhill from an ant hill without the nomenclature. Anyone can make a stamp. Faking these isn't a sign of great intelligence. But turning a $10 basket pipe into a $150 "collectible" by spending $20 worth of labor is worth it to some people. It's small potatoes. And the fakes are egregiously bad, yet people are suckered constantly.
You bought a fake, but you say you don't care. So don't care.

 

[telescopes]

Stop it folks. Everyone needs to lay off @Briar Lee What he has is a genuine Yokum Arkansas Dunghill. Hmmm. Some people call it a Kaiser Pipe, but here in the Ozarks, we call it a Sling Pipe.

Besides, “I like the way he talks.”

 

[georged]

I just remembered something about the Black Spot story... the guy insisted the inlaid dot itself was made from black pearl, black onyx, obsidian, or something like that. A gemstone.

Man, I miss Chicago...

 

[sablebrush52]

Also, I suppose, it's a good example of why you shouldn't believe things simply because they make you feel good. (That guy had wasted thousands of dollars and was intent on wasting more)

Sounds like your typical Studio exec.. BTW, do you have his contact info? I have that 7th black dot.

 

[sasquatch]

I got a pipe with a dot so black you can't even see it.

 

[kcghost]

I was situating at the table with George and it was amusing as the guy squirmed in his chair. I'm sure the guy was just posing as he really didn't know a Dunhill from a dunghill and was just repeating what someone told him.

 

[telescopes]

Funny, I found a black dot Dunhill on Tobacco Treasures just a month ago. I thought, why would I buy a Dunhill with a black dot.

 

[sablebrush52]

Funny, I found a black dot Dunhill on Tobacco Treasures just a month ago. I thought, why would I buy a Dunhill with a black dot.

Because you can.
You caught my curiosity with the black dot so I took a look. Looks like a custom redo with a frame around what looks like a red dot.
BTW, I've done business with Tobacco Treasures and Fae has been a complete joy to deal with. Highly recommended.

 

[telescopes]

Because you can.

LOL. Yes, I can. But wouldn’t a nice 1927 Dunhill half bend be nicer?