Update on Esterval's Dispute

[hoosierpipeguy]

I placed a large order with Estervals in the spring. It made it as far as Tucson, and then the USPS sent it back to Germany. Estervals kindly shipped It back to me at their expense. After it arrived again in Tucson, the USPS sent it to California, then back to Tucson, then back to California, then back to Tucson, when I finally received it. One tin had obviously been opened by Customs. Total time: 5 months.
The problems with tobacco shipments from Estervals to the U.S. are entirely the fault of US customs and the USPS. I was fully aware of the risks when I placed the order, and everyone in the US that orders tobacco from abroad should be realistic about the fact that there is no guarantee that customs will not intervene or the USPS will not screw it up. Estervals has been kind enough to try to service U.S. pipe smokers, knowing full well that problems will arise. It’s nice that the would-be buyer got his money back, but he jeopardizes the relationship that US buyers have with Estervals. Tell me, where else are you going to go, to get HU tobaccos, once Estervals decides that US buyers are not worth the risk and the hassles?
The age of entitlement for us Americans is over, for good reason, and we will have better relations with our brothers and sisters abroad when we come to terms with it.

I respect your perspective but we live in a global economy. Goods are shipped by the hundreds of thousands to the USA from other countries each and every day. Estervals doesn't get a free pass because they ship from Germany IMHO. And they're not doing it to do us a favor. They enjoy the profits from the sales to the USA. In turn, they are obliged to offer the same level of service as USA retailers.

Other offshore retailers discontinued shipments to the USA due to the issues and inherent risk. They made a conscious business decision. Estervals needs to do the same. Most offshore companies that ship Cuban cigars to the USA assume responsibility for delivery. Estervals does not get a free pass.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

I respect your perspective but we live in a global economy. Goods are shipped by the hundreds of thousands to the USA from other countries each and every day. Estervals doesn't get a free pass because they ship from Germany IMHO. And they're not doing it to do us a favor. They enjoy the profits from the sales to the USA. In turn, they are obliged to offer the same level of service as USA retailers.

Other offshore retailers discontinued shipments to the USA due to the issues and inherent risk. They made a conscious business decision. Estervals needs to do the same. Most offshore companies that ship Cuban cigars to the USA assume responsibility for delivery. Estervals does not get a free pass.

Yes, we are in a global economy. One in which tobacco has a target on its back. Everywhere.

I fail to understand why Jesse should be subject to any criticism for exercising his rights as a consumer. Any internet merchant understands charge back disputes and what you have to do to win them.

 

[pauls456]

Nobody said or thinks that Estervals is doing us a favor by shipping us tobacco. They ship tobacco in exchange for money. We pay money in exchange for tobacco. The buyer has his money back, but its doubtful whether Estervals will get its tobacco back. By turning it into a zero-sum game, everybody eventually loses.
BTW, Estervals position on this is that the each buyer should understand the rules, regulations, and realities of his/her own country before ordering. By definition, we smokers are mature adults, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Personally, I don’t think its Estervals duty to assume the problems of each individual country in the world.

 

[seanv]

Nobody said or thinks that Estervals is doing us a favor by shipping us tobacco. They ship tobacco in exchange for money. We pay money in exchange for tobacco. The buyer has his money back, but its doubtful whether Estervals will get its tobacco back. By turning it into a zero-sum game, everybody eventually loses.
BTW, Estervals position on this is that the each buyer should understand the rules, regulations, and realities of his/her own country before ordering. By definition, we smokers are mature adults, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Personally, I don’t think its Estervals duty to assume the problems of each individual country in the world.

I will agree with this. Most of my tobacco comes from abroad and there are fewer retailers willing to ship here. Every time someone sends a box back due to duties or a shipment gets turned around at the border, the retailers are more likely to say forget it and only ship domestically.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

BTW, Estervals position on this is that the each buyer should understand the rules, regulations, and realities of his/her own country before ordering.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about Esterval sending tobacco to @sablebrush52. There is absolutely nothing illegal about Him buying from Esterval. That would even be true if he were a resident of Washington state, since the trade treaty between the US and Germany over rides state law and does not penalize a resident consumer/recipient.

If Amazon fails to deliver a package to me, they refund or replace. They recently sent me a pack of AAAA batteries (I never knew such a thing existed) when I had ordered AAA I went to their page, explained the issue. They shipped out the desired quantity of AAA batteries the next day. They didn’t even want the AAAA batteries back since the return shipping would have exceeded the cost of the batteries.

Realities? The reality is that goods get lost in transit every day. Commercial contracts can shift the burden of this risk, but in consumer transactions, particularly when a credit card issued by a third part financial institution is concerned, merchants assume the risk of delivery. That is reality. Nobody made reality a zero sum game, but sometimes reality bites somebody.

I haven’t ordered from Estervals in many years. I have a good friend who has been a customer of theirs for many years. I am frankly shocked by their attitude in this case. I hope nothing there has changed and this is a one off.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Nobody said or thinks that Estervals is doing us a favor by shipping us tobacco. They ship tobacco in exchange for money. We pay money in exchange for tobacco. The buyer has his money back, but its doubtful whether Estervals will get its tobacco back. By turning it into a zero-sum game, everybody eventually loses.
BTW, Estervals position on this is that the each buyer should understand the rules, regulations, and realities of his/her own country before ordering. By definition, we smokers are mature adults, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Personally, I don’t think its Estervals duty to assume the problems of each individual country in the world.

If Estervals doesn't want to assume responsibility for delivery, they should quote and sell as FOB shipping point Let the buyer arrange pick up and shipping. As it presently is set up, Estervals presents an assumption they are accountable for delivering to the customers doorstep.

You're entitled to your opinion. But you're not entitled to your own facts.

 

[craig61a]

Nobody said or thinks that Estervals is doing us a favor by shipping us tobacco. They ship tobacco in exchange for money. We pay money in exchange for tobacco. The buyer has his money back, but its doubtful whether Estervals will get its tobacco back. By turning it into a zero-sum game, everybody eventually loses.
BTW, Estervals position on this is that the each buyer should understand the rules, regulations, and realities of his/her own country before ordering. By definition, we smokers are mature adults, so this shouldn’t be a problem. Personally, I don’t think its Estervals duty to assume the problems of each individual country in the world.

But then again, Esterval’s is taking a calculated risk shipping here, and accepting payment by credit card.

Same thing a lot of vendors did a few years ago shipping Cuban cigars into this country, even guaranteeing to replace lost or seized shipments. Once Customs had a push to confiscate said shipments, they re-evaluated their risk vs reward and now won’t ship here anymore.

Purely business. To quote Nicky Santoro in Casino: It was always about the dollars...

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

But then again, Esterval’s is taking a calculated risk shipping here, and accepting payment by credit card.

Same thing a lot of vendors did a few years ago shipping Cuban cigars into this country, even guaranteeing to replace lost or seized shipments. Once Customs had a push to confiscate said shipments, they re-evaluated their risk vs reward and now won’t ship here anymore.

Purely business. To quote Nicky Santoro in Casino: It was always about the dollars...View attachment 46428

There are plenty of vendors that will ship Cuban cigars to the USA with guaranteed delivery.

 

[craig61a]

There are plenty of vendors that will ship Cuban cigars to the USA with guaranteed delivery.

Well once there is another push to seize those these companies will probably stop shipping here. It’s a cat and mouse game they play with Customs. Besides, IMHO, Cuban cigars are overrated. Nicaraguan smokes are the top of the heap nowadays. I’ll take a Padron over just about any Cuban... ?

 

[rmpeeps]

I placed a large order with Estervals in the spring. It made it as far as Tucson, and then the USPS sent it back to Germany. Estervals kindly shipped It back to me at their expense. After it arrived again in Tucson, the USPS sent it to California, then back to Tucson, then back to California, then back to Tucson, when I finally received it. One tin had obviously been opened by Customs. Total time: 5 months.
The problems with tobacco shipments from Estervals to the U.S. are entirely the fault of US customs and the USPS. I was fully aware of the risks when I placed the order, and everyone in the US that orders tobacco from abroad should be realistic about the fact that there is no guarantee that customs will not intervene or the USPS will not screw it up. Estervals has been kind enough to try to service U.S. pipe smokers, knowing full well that problems will arise. It’s nice that the would-be buyer got his money back, but he jeopardizes the relationship that US buyers have with Estervals. Tell me, where else are you going to go, to get HU tobaccos, once Estervals decides that US buyers are not worth the risk and the hassles?
The age of entitlement for us Americans is over, for good reason, and we will have better relations with our brothers and sisters abroad when we come to terms with it.

I really don’t think you understand the issues in this situation.
Absolutely nothing in terms of American entitlement; simply a lack of delivering a product after receiving payment for said product.

 

[sablebrush52]

The problems with tobacco shipments from Estervals to the U.S. are entirely the fault of US customs and the USPS. I was fully aware of the risks when I placed the order, and everyone in the US that orders tobacco from abroad should be realistic about the fact that there is no guarantee that customs will not intervene or the USPS will not screw it up. Estervals has been kind enough to try to service U.S. pipe smokers, knowing full well that problems will arise. It’s nice that the would-be buyer got his money back, but he jeopardizes the relationship that US buyers have with Estervals. Tell me, where else are you going to go, to get HU tobaccos, once Estervals decides that US buyers are not worth the risk and the hassles?
The age of entitlement for us Americans is over, for good reason, and we will have better relations with our brothers and sisters abroad when we come to terms with it.

Boy. I go away for a walk and some dinner with a friend and look what happens.

I can't speak to what happened with your order, but I can speak to what happened with mine.

When I finally got hold of a living person at USPS I found out that the package had been sent from the distribution center in Carson (about 35 miles from me) back to Los Angeles International and onto a plane in a matter of hours. That was the only part of this transaction that happened rapidly. The person at USPS said that it had been ordered by Customs and she gave me a number to call.

The Customs agent I spoke with said categorically that they had no involvement. Let me repeat that. The Customs agent said CATEGORICALLY that they had NO involvement.

She then went over the tracking record with me to point out that they had no involvement. Had the package gone to Customs it would have shown up in the tracking record. There was no mention of Customs in the tracking record.

She also said CATEGORICALLY that Customs doesn't order it4ems to be returned. They have no budget for paying for that. Had Customs been involved, they would do one of three things. They would impound it and send me a letter, which did not happen. Based on negotiations they would have either cleared the package to be sent to me, sent it to be auctioned, or destroyed it.

When I contacted Esterval's about what had happened they did not offer to resend it. Instead, they said that I would be charged 60 Euros per week in fines while it was in Customs until it was destroyed. There was NO offer of assistance. NONE. It was my problem.

So I made it their problem by filing a dispute.

After receiving email from other customers about their attitude, they then sent me another, more cordial email, still blaming me for not being clairvoyant, and offered to resend it. I told them that I was willing to do that and that all they needed to do was to send me a photo of the package with the address clearly visible and I would end the dispute.

They did not respond.

Both Esterval's and I sent evidence to the card issuer's claims department. The department ruled in my favor.

Sorry, but I decline to sacrifice my rights to get goods ordered for payment, or a refund for failure to perform, so that you can continue to buy HU tobaccos from Esterval's. If you're that concerned, feel free to pay them yourself.

Or you can purchase HU from pheiffendepot, who are Hans' original US distributor.

As for HU tobaccos, the blends that I've ordered over the years have changed. Makhuwa used to taste like a rich chocolate milkshake. Now there's little to no chocolate in it and it's harsh. Director's Cut has had the Perique cut down and cheap African dark fired added. 5th Anniversary blend hasn't got the same incredibly rich Virginia blend as the base that it once had.

If Esterval's decides to discontinue mailing to the US, that's on them. Not on me. That's their business decision to make. Perhaps they need to improve their labeling.

It's the shipper's responsibility to see that product makes it to its destination. That's why I pay shipping.

If shipping is risky, they have a duty to inform their clientele.

As others have said, Esterval's doesn't get a free pass.

 

[sablebrush52]

I will agree with this. Most of my tobacco comes from abroad and there are fewer retailers willing to ship here. Every time someone sends a box back due to duties or a shipment gets turned around at the border, the retailers are more likely to say forget it and only ship domestically.

If a business is going to operate internationally it should know what it is doing.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Well once there is another push to seize those these companies will probably stop shipping here. It’s a cat and mouse game they play with Customs. Besides, IMHO, Cuban cigars are overrated. Nicaraguan smokes are the top of the heap nowadays. I’ll take a Padron over just about any Cuban... ?

In general, I agree with you on the Nicaraguans. Great strength and flavor without all the hassle.

 

[craig61a]

Most of these off shore companies shipping tobacco here are willing to gamble that shipments will just go through and be delivered. If something happens, well hey it’s on the customer, to bad, so sad.

Shipping tobacco internationally is highly regulated, and subject to myriad rules and regulations. Just because people regularly get away with it most of the time doesn’t mean that the rules and regs don’t apply.

People like to mention that you can bring in up to like 2000 g duty free. Well, yes, if your flying in from somewhere outside the US and go through customs. Having it mailed here from outside the US isn’t the same thing. No matter how much people want to delude themselves.

The situation being discussed here appears to involve the USPS exclusively, and why it would be returned to the vendor is beyond me.

Usually contraband items are held, the addressee is given the opportunity to pay the fees, or sign a letter of surrender.

In any case Esterval’s figured they’d play the international tobacco shipping game, wanted to have the cake and eat it too... well they got chumped.

It’s not the fault of the person ordering the product, although there is always that risk when ordering products from overseas. And no, they don’t have to follow the consumer protection laws, well, because they are in a totally different country.

 

[craig61a]

In general, I agree with you on the Nicaraguans. Great strength and flavor without all the hassle.

Just my opinion, but the quality of Cuban cigars has gone way down from what it was say 20, 25 years ago.

A few years ago when the rules were relaxed under the Obama Administration, people were whooping it up thinking they’d be able to buy Cubans at their local B&M.

They’re having a tough time maintaining quality now. Could you imagine if the demand suddenly increased ten fold...

I find that the Nicaraguan brands are much like how Cuban cigars used to be. The leaf grown there is high quality, and certain areas produce some very unique leaf. Manufacturing targets aren’t ridiculously out of sight, and the rollers have a level of experience to put out a quality product.

30+ years ago my first box purchase was Joya... I think I ended up throwing most of the box away. But then there was a civil war going on, and the industry wasn’t anywhere near as developed as it is today.

 

[craig61a]

Okay I think this Esterval’s thread has been beaten to death...

Glad Sable got his money back.

Sucks that the HU blends are being dicked with.

I’ve got enough tobacco to last me into the next century... so I really don’t need to concern myself with overseas vendors... Mike drop.

 

[mortonbriar]

Okay I think this Esterval’s thread has been beaten to death...

Glad Sable got his money back.

Sucks that the HU blends are being dicked with.

I’ve got enough tobacco to last me into the next century... so I really don’t need to concern myself with overseas vendors... Mike drop.

Mike's too heavy, just do a mic drop.

 

[karam]

If Amazon fails to deliver a package to me, they refund or replace.

River raft vs USS Eisenhower, though good business and good business sense is the same whether you are selling ice cream from a cart or you're Jeff Bezos.

On topic,

As for HU tobaccos, the blends that I've ordered over the years have changed. Makhuwa used to taste like a rich chocolate milkshake. Now there's little to no chocolate in it and it's harsh. Director's Cut has had the Perique cut down and cheap African dark fired added. 5th Anniversary blend hasn't got the same incredibly rich Virginia blend as the base that it once had.

That's a shame, I bought DC and Makhuwa earlier this year, finished both and really enjoyed both. Makhuwa was the only bona fide chocolate blend I've had, and didn't find it harsh. I also really enjoyed Director's Cut despite not finding any Perique in the taste. So, silver lining, enjoyed both blends without any prior knowledge

 

[seanv]

If a business is going to operate internationally it should know what it is doing.

There is an international shipping agreement that you have to agree to at most vendors. It makes it quite clear that if you don't get your package for any reason, too bad for you. If any fees are attached, that is the risk you take.
In this case it sounds like USPS totally screwed up. You took the right approach and said please just reship it. Estervals should have just shipped it back. You don't know how many people that week refused their shipments due to duties or who knows what. It is possible you were grouped into that

 

[sablebrush52]

There is an international shipping agreement that you have to agree to at most vendors. It makes it quite clear that if you don't get your package for any reason, too bad for you. If any fees are attached, that is the risk you take.

Well, unless Esterval's has redone their site, there's no such language there. I checked. Businesses can write whatever they want. That doesn't make it enforceable. Contracts regularly have garbage boilerplate added to them. I just signed one where I erased all of it before signing. The company accepted the revised contract without a murmur. I've signed and/or negotiated dozens of contracts over the years.
The 4 greatest lies should be revised to include "this contract is binding".