Update on Esterval's Dispute

[oldgeezersmoker]

I think the ATF, Treasury, and Customs would differ with your opinion.

I practiced tax law for 35 years. Some might even say I came close to getting it right before I retired. At least most of them paid my bills in a more or less timely manner. While 98% of my cases were with the IRS, I handled one case involving the ATF and 3 or 4 Customs disputes

Well, they have to have a statute or regulation that would support the opinion that you think they would offer. The United States Code is on line, searchable. So is the Code of Federal Regulations. Go find the section that would support that view. I will gladly look at it. I am waiting.

 

[sablebrush52]

Bottom of the main page, Information -Shipping link

That’s their position. Right, wrong, or indifferent. There’s no International Court of Shipping Disputes to take it up with... And unless your CC company sides with you, your SOL.
View attachment 46486

"Refused or unclaimed", neither of which apply in this case. Now show me where it says if we get the address wrong, or do a crappy job of printing it so a scanner can't read it, it's your problem.

 

[warren]

Well put Jesse!

It's a simple problem some members are trying to complicate. The vendor simply isn't interested in communicating or trying to explain. Nothing more need to be said.

 

[sablebrush52]

1. Esterval shipped the order as promised and as they have successfully shipped orders to you in the past, they have the correct address.
2. It cleared U.S. Customs and Customs talked to you and showed evidence that they did not order the package returned to them and the package did not show tracking that USPS sent it back through Customs.

Now that doesn't mean that Esterval is innocent of bad customer service. Everything you've posted is an example of that.

1. Esterval shipped the order as promised and as they have successfully shipped orders to you in the past, they have the correct address.
Yep. But who's to say that they printed it correctly, or that the printing was readable? Did you see the package? I didn't.
2. It cleared U.S. Customs and Customs talked to you and showed evidence that they did not order the package returned to them and the package did not show tracking that USPS sent it back through Customs.
Wrong. Customs had no dealings with it. Again, Customs had no dealings with it. Again, Customs had NO dealings with it.
US Customs does NOT order merchandise returned. It is impounded, a letter is sent out, and depending on the outcome, the merchandise is either released, sold at a federal auction, or destroyed.

How difficult is this to comprehend?
Try again.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Tobacco is a highly regulated and taxed commodity. Not only between States, but especially between Countries.

The US imposes an excise tax on imported tobacco, as do States. Failing to pay the taxes is a violation of law.

Quantities of tobacco are allowed to be imported into the US if it is purchased outside of the US and declared when brought into the US. If the quantities exceed the threshold then you must pay duty on the excess.

The focus lately has been on seizing illicit cigarette trafficking from outside the US, which is a source of funding for groups who are terrorist organizations.

So, while a quantity of tobacco shipped from Germany isn’t embargoed as is the case with Cuban cigars, the amount you can legally import is limited to a certain amount and frequency.

Links? I’m not here to do your due diligence. Claiming ignorance of the law isn’t a defense, either.

The key is that there is no embargo on f’ing pipe tobacco! It is dutiable. It seems like most recently even the amounts being ordered by US customers fromEstervals are going through without duties being charged. Estervals clearly says, on their web page that you seem to have so carefully flyspecked, that they declare what the contents are and the full value. Customs never bothered to assess duties. Jesse could have paid the duties, or not, if they were assessed. Nothing shady going on.if you exceed some duty free allowance, you pay duties. If assessed

Gee, why didn’t they? Well maybe because the actual rates can be more complicated than Chinese Arithmetic and it just wasn’t worth the trouble.
https://hts.usitc.gov/view/Chapter 24?release=2020HTSARev19

look, this seems so simple. A completely legal transaction went off the rails. Somebody is going to lose. Why are you so upset it was the merchant who lost and not the consumer? I don’t get it.

 

[georged]

Jesse --

The part that you left out at the very beginning of this was the VALUE of the shipment.

That it was only a half-ounce sample (that you redeemed a coupon for, no less) is significant, don't you think?

 

[cosmicfolklore]

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I'm really glad that your account got credited. I don't know this Estervals place, but they are just a company. It kills me how people treat companies like best friends, when the company would cut their throat for an extra dollar. I say fuck them! You think they'd stand up for you? You are absolutely wrong.

 

[craig61a]

I practiced tax law for 35 years. Some might even say I came close to getting it right before I retired. At least most of them paid my bills in a more or less timely manner. While 98% of my cases were with the IRS, I handled one case involving the ATF and 3 or 4 Customs disputes

Well, they have to have a statute or regulation that would support the opinion that you think they would offer. The United States Code is on line, searchable. So is the Code of Federal Regulations. Go find the section that would support that view. I will gladly look at it. I am waiting.

Congratulations!

I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t play one on TV. However I have traveled and lived abroad long enough, and read enough regulations to realize that importing tobacco has limitations and tax responsibilities.

 

[craig61a]

 

[craig61a]

"Refused or unclaimed", neither of which apply in this case. Now show me where it says if we get the address wrong, or do a crappy job of printing it so a scanner can't read it, it's your problem.

Well there’s that little part at the bottom: Returns from outside the EU will not be refunded.

You got your money back, and learned a lesson.

 

[mingc]

Links? I’m not here to do your due diligence. Claiming ignorance of the law isn’t a defense, either.

That's nice.

 

[craig61a]

The key is that there is no embargo on f’ing pipe tobacco! It is dutiable. It seems like most recently even the amounts being ordered by US customers fromEstervals are going through without duties being charged. Estervals clearly says, on their web page that you seem to have so carefully flyspecked, that they declare what the contents are and the full value. Customs never bothered to assess duties. Jesse could have paid the duties, or not, if they were assessed. Nothing shady going on.if you exceed some duty free allowance, you pay duties. If assessed

Gee, why didn’t they? Well maybe because the actual rates can be more complicated than Chinese Arithmetic and it just wasn’t worth the trouble.
https://hts.usitc.gov/view/Chapter 24?release=2020HTSARev19

look, this seems so simple. A completely legal transaction went off the rails. Somebody is going to lose. Why are you so upset it was the merchant who lost and not the consumer? I don’t get it.

I’m not upset... just stating the obvious. I could care less.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Congratulations!

I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t play one on TV. However I have traveled and lived abroad long enough, and read enough regulations to realize that importing tobacco has limitations and tax responsibilities.

Sure. But what limitation was violated here? A duty free allowance does not mean that bringing in goods in excess of the allowance is prohibited. Before the regs changed in England, I ordered tobacco from at least three shops there frequently. In every case the shops said “tobacco” and declared the full value. I never even asked them to do otherwise. Most of the time the package was delivered with no mention that any duties were due. Sometimes it wasn’t, and I paid what I considered a modest amount of money by simply going to the post office with the notice.

No flashing lights. No sirens. No handcuffs. No SWAT teams. A simple form letter with an amount due entered in handwriting..

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

I’m not upset... just stating the obvious. I could care less.

You sure have gone to a lot of trouble (mis)reading fine print and making up law if you aren’t upset. You seem to be alone in thinking your position is obvious.

 

[craig61a]

Sure. But what limitation was violated here? A duty free allowance does not mean that bringing in goods in excess of the allowance is prohibited. Before the regs changed in England, I ordered tobacco from at least three shops there frequently. In every case the shops said “tobacco” and declared the full value. I never even asked them to do otherwise. Most of the time the package was delivered with no mention that any duties were due. Sometimes it wasn’t, and I paid what I considered a modest amount of money by simply going to the post office with the notice.

No flashing lights. No sirens. No handcuffs. No SWAT teams. A simple form letter with an amount due entered in handwriting..

Fine...

 

[sablebrush52]

Well there’s that little part at the bottom: Returns from outside the EU will not be refunded.

You got your money back, and learned a lesson.

Just because a company policy is printed on a page it doesn't make that policy legal or enforceable. Which is what happened here.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Well there’s that little part at the bottom: Returns from outside the EU will not be refunded.

You got your money back, and learned a lesson.

How many times does it have to be said: @sablebrush52 didn’t return squat.

 

[craig61a]

You sure have gone to a lot of trouble (mis)reading fine print and making up law if you aren’t upset. You seem to be alone in thinking your position is obvious.

This will end here. I’m getting a little fed up with your personal attacks.

 

[craig61a]

How many times does it have to be said: @sablebrush52 didn’t return squat.

Just because a company policy is printed on a page it doesn't make that policy legal or enforceable. Which is what happened here.

So are you going to take this up with the UN...?