The 2015 Esoterica Sales Fraud Incident

[skraps]

I can guarantee had you just sent him some of your hard earned money and not gotten any response, any package, and no refund for almost 5 weeks, you'd be a little peeved as well.

You are correct, and I would proceed to file my claim, just as you did. What I would not do is waste my time screaming at the top of my lungs what a fraud the guy was. One simple reason... I have no clue what happened on his end. I have seen it before. Really crappy things happen to people. We don't know another mans life unless we live a day in his shoes.
Does it suck that a bunch of you had to go through this? Of course it does. It's s**ty. No one deserves to be parted with their money when expecting something in return, only to never receive what they are due. But everyone is getting their money back.

You don't list 16 bags, and then sell 29 to members and excuse that behavior by saying "the guy couldn't count."

No, I was being facetious. It doesn't however eliminate the possibility that the guy had some major medical issue, a stroke, etc. which may have seriously affected his mental capacity. That is equally as possible as it is that a guy--who had a stellar record of trades and sales--turns out to be an overnight con artist.

 

[skraps]

I highly doubt this guy had any kind of problem that prevented him from getting the tobacco to the people who paid for it

I don't doubt anything is possible in this situation. The difference is, I do not consider myself so superior that I would make a judgement one way or another based on the information that is available.
I'm not going to make excuses for him, and on that same note, others shouldn't condemn him. If you had all the facts, it would be a different story. You can assume all you want... but we know what happens with that...

 

[gogosamgo]

What I would not do is waste my time screaming at the top of my lungs what a fraud the guy was.

Who's screaming? You may not be spending your time providing facts of how this could have been a fraud case, but you are spending plenty of time in defense of it. Unfortunately he hasn't had a "stellar" record of trades and sales. A few members in the original sales thread mentioned how they had made purchases from him in the past and never received it and had to file claims on Paypal, if I would have known this, I wouldn't have purchased anything to begin with. I made a purchase with him a few weeks before the esoterica purchase, but for a much smaller amount of money, and although I received it, it came a bit later than promised. I haven't deemed him as a con-artist, but the number of bags he sold vs what had for sale is a troubling fact, as well as the fact that the $1700+ was withdrawn. It's fishy, that's all I'm saying. To me this is matter of making other members aware of the risk of making any trade or purchase on any online forum. It doesn't matter how established, reputable or nice a member seems, when you make any trade or purchase, it's a risk, one that almost cost me several hundred dollars. It'll probably be a long while before I make any purchase on here again, if ever, but hopefully it will serve the purpose of teaching new members to be aware.

 

[skraps]

doesn't tale a rocket scientist to figure this one out

Read above for reference to another member who went through a little bump in the road of life. The same mob mentality started, only to find out that the guy had legitimate health issues which made him unable to complete the transactions in a timely manner.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are more possibilities than just what you think.

 

[skraps]

You may not be spending your time providing facts of how this could have been a fraud case, but you are spending plenty of time in defense of it.

I think you are mistaken there, Gogo. I have not defended him directly, I have simply pointed out--as several others have--that there is information that is not available here, which makes it impossible to determine if this was intentional or not.
Fishy? Yep. I agree completely. Anything other than that and the fact that it was a very unfortunate situation? At this point... not for me, you, or anyone else to say for sure.

 

[sablebrush52]

Sable, that's not true.

What's not true? If you are going to have a verified account with PayPal you have to have a bank account tied to it. Most sites that take PayPal also want a verified account. Necessary if you're going to be a seller on line. So, what's not true? I've been hearing that PayPal has been more insistent on a financial handshake recently as a condition of setting up an account. Mine was done years ago.
Or are you referring to PayPal being able to pull money from your account? Sure they can. Or about a bank putting a hold on funds? They can absolutely do that.
Of course, to a financial institution, these amounts are less than chump change, and PayPal might just decide it's cheaper to eat the loss.
But, a credit report, or fraud report, will be made where it can be seen by other financial institutions.

 

[deathmetal]

From experience, also, sales reps do not always have all the facts and are sometimes instructed to tell polite fictions.
The internet hive-mind is well known and can be quite abusive. Until we know for certain, we don't know. Working ourselves up into an emotional state is always a precursor to bad things, never good.
I see I've been downgraded from "Deathmetal" to "Heavymetal." Heh!

 

[iamn8]

Sable, because you have an account tied to your PayPal account does not mean they can take money out of it. I promise I know this for a fact. You can have a PayPal account with -1200 but they can't take that from your bank account.
Speedmetal, I'm done. Internet hive mind? You really are "that guy" huh?

 

[deathmetal]

Upgraded to Speedmetal. Not bad.

 

[sablebrush52]

Sable, because you have an account tied to your PayPal account does not mean they can take money out of it. I promise I know this for a fact.

Nate, I have a PayPal account and I can tell you for a fact that they can and do.

 

[iamn8]

I went through another fraud case and it was my experience, after speaking with my bank and PayPal, that they can't. Perhaps it depends on the situation, but your perspective has not been my experience. I to have a PayPal account tied to my checking account. PayPal attempted to withdraw money. My bank stepped in and stopped it. It's against the law.

 

[deathmetal]

One of the reasons I do not have a PayPal account is that the contract required gave them permission to take out money from the linked account.
Maybe that oversteps banking regs, or maybe not in all cases.
They're currently paying out a class action suit over fees of some kind. Great business.
And please don't downgrade me to Grindcore or Hard Rock!

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Pssst . . . anyone want to buy some Stonehaven or Penzance?

 

[sablebrush52]

It's against the law.

It's not against the law. Under rules governing ACH/EFT PayPal can withdraw or deposit funds into a linked account. There might have been some other specific factor involved in your particular situation, but it's not a matter of legality.

 

[fordm60]

peck, LMAO!

 

[sablebrush52]

Pssst . . . anyone want to buy some Stonehaven or Penzance?

:rofl:

 

[pitchfork]

The obvious question is why the Illuminati want us to believe that masspiper was the lone seller behind this plot. Ammaright?

 

[iamn8]

This experience has soured me greatly. I'm done here. You guys take care. I've enjoyed this forum greatly.

 

[deathmetal]

Pssst . . . anyone want to buy some Stonehaven or Penzance?

Comes with free Golden Gate Bridge!

This experience has soured me greatly. I'm done here. You guys take care. I've enjoyed this forum greatly.

I was one of the founders of the admitted slowly growing but still popular Smoke a Pipe With Nate Day. I am, unabashedly, a Nate fan. I would gladly smoke Dunhill flake with you.
I hope you stay.
People like myself are not defending anyone, nor accusing anyone else, but warning against one of the negative tendencies of the internet, which is to let conjecture become reality. We know the guy oversold and then flaked out and people got their money back, but not much else, and we don't want to go down in history like Reddit. That's all.
I'm always a big fan of keeping it gentlemanlike (and ladylike) on forums because we are not enemies nor do we have to hate each other. We can disagree whilst keeping it civil. Hang in there; we're still friendlies (speaking for myself and what I believe to be the case with several others here).
UK residents, please point out if I've misused "whilst."

 

[misterlowercase]

DO NOT PANIC
::
resolution beats revolution
:​