The 2015 Esoterica Sales Fraud Incident

[davet]

He actually did sell his other tobaccos here.

OK, didn't recall seeing it but it seemed interesting that everything sold but the unicorns. Just thought it weird when I first read it.

 

[iamn8]

Actually he did collect. He withdrew the cash and left a negative balance. PayPal took the hit, not him.

 

[deathmetal]

And since they have his bank account information, I doubt that'll get him very far... unless it's a non-US account.

 

[jackswilling]

Normally, I would not post a PM, but I will make this exception, as it adds to what is going on in this thread:
PIPES MAGAZINE » PRIVATE MESSAGES » PENZANCE WANT TO BUY
masspiper

Member

John Sure we will do 8. You want just the Penzance correct? You can PayPal to aisportsnutcs@yahoo.com total is $567.50. I will PM you when I receive the funds and when it ships. I am going to be busy the next couple of days so shipping maybe Saturday or Monday. I will update the thread. Please enjoy! Don

SENT: 12/10/15 AT 01:08:10 AM TO JACKSWILLING
It has been a real "joy"

 

[sablebrush52]

Just strange. I'd bought some tobacco from him on the sale just prior to this one and when it didn't show up, I contacted him and he made an instant full refund, no questions asked. He seemed a bit confused about the whole transaction, like he couldn't remember it, but sent the money anyway.
As alleged swindles go, this is one of the most inept. There's no effort on his part to protect himself from consequences. There's no anything.
Weird.

 

[sablebrush52]

This whole thing reminds me of an unfunny version of The Producers.

 

[iamn8]

I've had a PayPal incident before. They can't just take the money away. He gets the cash and a negative PayPal balance. They can't deduct it from his personal bank account.

 

[deathmetal]

Yet another good reason to avoid PayPal...

 

[sablebrush52]

They can't deduct it from his personal bank account.

Depends on how the PayPal account is set up. PayPal can automatically deduct money owed from a member's checking account if they have been provided with account information. If the PayPal account didn't automatically link to a bank account, PayPal will contact the bank, and assuming that they can prove that the orders were unfilled, the bank can put a hold on Masspiper's accounts until the matter is settled.

 

[skraps]

Actually he did collect. He withdrew the cash and left a negative balance. PayPal took the hit, not him.

Unless you work for PayPal, or have access to his account, you have NO idea if he actually withdrew the money from his PayPal account.
I just don't understand what is with all the wild speculation about this. People are getting their money refunded. Can we dispense with all the mystery novel theories on what his motivation was.
There is not an ounce of proof that there was any motivation to this at all. We know one thing, for whatever reason, the guy couldn't count. That's it. For every accusation of overselling his product, there are just as many possible explanations.
I don't know the guy, I have never dealt with him. I do however, get a little concerned when the mob mentality takes over and all the sudden the arm chair detectives of the world claim that they know exactly what happened simply based on their brilliant powers of deduction.

 

[deathmetal]

I agree. The more we rage, the less likely we are to ever hear what happened, which will be important for the future state of mind of the trading community.
My understanding of PayPal is the same as Sable's: to get an account with any real privileges, you need to have a bank account connected, and US banks at least take a dim view of fraud.

 

[misterlowercase]

I do however, get a little concerned when the mob mentality takes over and all the sudden the arm chair detectives of the world claim that they know exactly what happened simply based on their brilliant powers of deduction.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

This has happened a few times on here. As one who makes many sales on $100+ using PayPal, my suggestion is to always ask for a bill for goods via PayPal. I know, I know,mPaypal makes a few dollars off the sale, but it helps with making and getting your refunds. And, to better protect all involved going through a third party is an even greater safety net, like eBay, etsy, etc... For the mere cost of a few dollars you have the protection of mega vendors at your mercy.

It's just too bad that stupidity, ineptness, and crooks make it so that we can't just go on one's word any more.
And, trusting someone on a forum that is hiding behind an alias and avatar that is not them makes trust a little more difficult.
So I goes...

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Yeh, this is why I don't like using my PayPal for tobacco stuff. It is linked to my business accounts, and I have to note every purchase for my accountant, so I don't have to get my hobby mixed up with business. And, yes, PayPal will just take over a bank account if they need to. And, they won't let me have two accounts. But as far as knowing what has happened to someone else's money once payment is made, there is no way to know.

 

[deathmetal]

Internet mobs remind me of this debacle:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/04/25/boston-bombing-social-media-student-brown-university-reddit/2112309/

 

[gogosamgo]

Unless you work for PayPal, or have access to his account, you have NO idea if he actually withdrew the money from his PayPal account.

Or in my case, I asked the representative and she said funds were transferred. You seem pretty adamant about this whole thing, and no matter what fact is thrown you raise an objection, but I can guarantee had you just sent him some of your hard earned money and not gotten any response, any package, and no refund for almost 5 weeks, you'd be a little peeved as well. I'm thankful everyone got a refund, and I'm not saying we should rush to bash him or anything, but the facts point to something being really fishy. You don't list 16 bags, and then sell 29 to members and excuse that behavior by saying "the guy couldn't count."

 

[iamn8]

Sable, that's not true.
Heavymetal, not sure what your deal is, but I give up addressing it.

 

[fordm60]

I want to jump in and ask everyone to be a little easier on him. That sounds silly I know. But please think of DoctorThoss, everyone for a bit wanted to break him on the wheel. Most were sure he was stealing also. But it turned out he had health issues and simply could not fill the orders nor communicate that with the forum. Now he is making everything right with those who ordered from him.
It appears everyone will get their money back through PayPal. Not the goods you ordered but at least your money back. No one knows what happened, many theories have been suggested most are not very pleasant. You all may be 100% correct and may be 100% incorrect. The individual has had many transactions on the forum with no issue. The current situation is out of character for him. One of the best predictors for how someone will act is what they have done in the past. His past indicates he does not rip people off. Perhaps we as a family/forum could ease up a little. Get your refund, but reserve judgement until there is more information. Guy might be in some morgue as a John Doe. There are as many theories that do not include ripping forum members off as there is for a nefarious reason. My one dealing with him was slow as he was moving but he got the deal complete and correctly in the end.
Anyway my two cents.

 

[iamn8]

Anyone who can't see this as fraud hasn't read the FACTS.

 

[fordm60]

(Sigh) A very smart man told me once: "Anger is the wind that blows out the light of the mind." I did not say I would be happy if it were me. I said you simply do not know what happened. That statement is true, you do not know. You can infer, make educated guesses, but there is simply not enough information at this time to know what happened. But if you want to say you know for sure based on the very small amount of information known at this time you are a better man/detective than I am. I do not want to get into a forum fight over it as I have no dog in the fight. So ignore me if that makes things better for you. Happy puffing to all!