Sorry, I Just Don't Get It.

[cosmicfolklore]

Duchamp's Fountain was placed in a show at great peril to his life. The Nazis were rising across Germany, and the jackbooted conservative thugs were storming museums and labeling art with free thought as "degenerate". Hitler was obsessed with art, maybe because he sucked at it. By, placing this in a museum, he was making a comment on the conservative museums that were succumbing to the train of thought that was guiding Hitler.

It's value is not in skill, but in historical value as I have stated above. It is a memento to humanity done at great risk. It is actually priceless in some regards.

I would most definitely be honored to piss in it while on exhibit in a museum.

 

[daimyo]

While I am not a fan of Newman, one thing I can say for certain is that it is easy to miss the point of an oil panting when looking at a flat picture of said painting. When I was young I did not get Miro. That all changed when I was able to see Blue ii in person. While I still expect people to criticize the painting for being simple, the actual painting moved me deeply and erased any thoughts that what Miro did was easy. Frankly it is harder to elicit emotion from a viewer with minimal tools than it is with realism. Paint a sappy scene that tugs at people's heart strings and you will get a reaction. This is the same reason there are so many songs about love and loss, it's easy to make people feel something they already have such a strong hold on. Try making someone feel something they can't put to words with only a few colors and no definitive iconography.
As for some of the fringe modern art pieces, there are pieces that were designed to make people question art and their perspective, to challenge the norms. Some of these pieces have value more for the discussions and questions they start than the quality or nature of the piece itself. Of course there are works that almost everyone finds trivial or overwrought in pretension but I do believe art to have a self correcting arc over time. Only those works that can impress someone 500 years from now, removed from social and time based context will truly live on. I love Duchamp's work for what it is but would never pay for such a piece. Those who do will own a piece of art history though, however ironic. I don't know of many people who consider his work to be the most important of any era but I'm sure someone does. As Cosmic pointed out, it goes a little deeper than just the piece.
Frozen, not sure what you are trying to say. You both admit that the highest end art auctions have little to do with art in general but you are the one who seemingly drew an inseparable relation between the two. Art as an investment is not the same as art in general. Just as buying wine as an investment will often diverge from what one may buy to drink. Art is hardly alone in that aspect. I give the high end buying of art zero relevance in my life and therefore it's irrelevant what happens in that realm. I certainly wouldn't judge the value of any work by its price and therefore would not conflate the two matrix's.

 

[drezz01]

It's value is not in skill, but in historical value as I have stated above. It is a memento to humanity done at great risk. It is actually priceless in some regards.

I certainly agree with you; as I said, the context can be more important than the physically manifest.

I don't know of many people who consider his work to be the most important of any era but I'm sure someone does

From the article I linked to from the BBC: Marcel Duchamp's Fountain came top of a poll of 500 art experts in the run-up to this year's Turner Prize which takes place on Monday. I have to confess I know nothing about the Turner Prize or its authority.

When I was young I did not get Miro. That all changed when I was able to see Blue ii in person

I am certainly not an art enthusiast though I took a lot of art history throughout my education. I can certainly relate to your statement though. I saw so many paintings via textbook and slide projection but it wasn't until I started running in to the originals in museums that I could really appreciate them in any way. I found this especially true with the impressionists; it's hard to feel the energy of a million little paint daubs communicating at once when it is shrunk down to 2x3" poorly printed in a text book.
As far as Duchamp goes, and for purely shallow reasons, I much prefer Nude Descending a Staircase, No. 2 f

 

[daimyo]

I think a lot of it is the emperor-has-no-clothes syndrome. Only "sophisticated" people understand it, and everyone wants to be sophisticated.

And therein lies some pretension. I could just as easily say that it's impossible that all the people who drink Budweiser actually like the taste. That it's more important to fit in, leading them to judge a beer that is mostly water and corn as being passable let alone the best. That clearly these people are trying to live up to their "good ole boy" "down home and uncomplicated" image. As much as Budweiser taste like toilet water to me though, I actually assume there are people who find its taste to be superior, even to objectively higher quality beer. I see no reason, other than reassuring my own ego, to not take them at their word. Now some people clearly do have a superior palate but I would judge that by their ability to recognize ingredients or flavors that others cannot detect, not by what they considered to be a quality product or choose to imbibe. To me that has to do with training and physical realities not "refinement." I don't care much who does or does not like Miro but I find it insulting that some think I only do because of a desire to seem refined.

 

[daimyo]

Although liking a painting like Onement VI and thinking it's worth 44 million are two different things, that's for certain. If it appreciates in value though, then the collectors instincts will be proven solid.

 

[daimyo]

I feel like I am beating a dead horse though, sorry for that.

Can we talk about how a single tuna sells for 1.8 million instead? :wink: ::

 

[drezz01]

Speaking of dead horses,

Maurizio Cattelan Novecento, 1997 Taxidermied horse
:lol: Couldn't help myself.

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

There is an oxymoron in the way that people describe art.
We are told it is a highly subjective and personal experience, and yet when I say that I get nothing from it I'm told that I'm missing something.

 

[seacaptain]

And therein lies some pretension. I could just as easily say that it's impossible that all the people who drink Budweiser actually like the taste. That it's more important to fit in, leading them to judge a beer that is mostly water and corn as being passable let alone the best. That clearly these people are trying to live up to their "good ole boy" "down home and uncomplicated" image. As much as Budweiser taste like toilet water to me though, I actually assume there are people who find its taste to be superior, even to objectively higher quality beer. I see no reason, other than reassuring my own ego, to not take them at their word. Now some people clearly do have a superior palate but I would judge that by their ability to recognize ingredients or flavors that others cannot detect, not by what they considered to be a quality product or choose to imbibe. To me that has to do with training and physical realities not "refinement." I don't care much who does or does not like Miro but I find it insulting that some think I only do because of a desire to seem refined.

LOL. I think you're right about Budweiser.
As far as Miro (and other "art"), I think modern society has erased the line between artistic talent and expression.
The urinal is a good example. There's no artistic talent involved. It's pure expression labeled as "art".
Many modern "art" exhibits are just expressions of the "artist's" particular attitude about something. The actual "art" could easily be done by anyone.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I don't see the problem with missing something, in something subjective. Although, I wouldn't worry about it. Not all art is for everyone. I'm not a fan of Classical music, ballet, or new country music. I've yet to taste an alcoholic beverage that tastes good to me or makes me feel "good." I don't like lots of things, and it causes me not one minute of lost sleep.

So, you have the things you like and things you dislike. So what?

I don't make fun of people that like the things that I don't, nor the things themselves. I don't have to put anything else down to make me feel good about being me. I just do what I like, like what I like, and let everyone else do likewise.

 

[daimyo]

I feel you are missing out on a personal experience, not on something I experience. Art is not communication. There are three distinct interactions happening in art. That of the artist and what it is to him. That of the viewer and what it is to them. This neither must be nor usually is the same as the first. Then there is the overall impact the work has on society and the general aesthetic. I would wish for you to have some art speak to you, regardless of what art it is or what it says to you. If that is not your experience then it simply is not. I certainly do not think less of you intellectually or otherwise. If someone has never enjoyed a good slice of pie, I would wish for them the experience but would hardly hold it against them if they got nothing from pie.

 

[cobguy]

. If someone has never enjoyed a good slice of pie, I would wish for them the experience but would hardly hold it against them if they got nothing from pie.

I would be, at minimum, distrusting of this individual.

 

[daimyo]

I would be, at minimum, distrusting of this individual.

:rofl:

 

[frozenchurchwarden]

I was about to use the absence of cheese in Asia as a cultural distinction in taste, but then I find out that a large portion of the Asian population is lactose intolerant, and western populations had to develop lactose tolerance.

And here I thought it was a serious health problem.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

eghads, now I'm hungry ::

 

[edgreen]

eghads, now I'm hungry

But you can only have an arty, foamy food cloud.

 

[cobguy]

But you can only have an arty, foamy food cloud.

 

[cobguy]

Ooops ... forgot the price tag. That will be $7800.00 please!

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Mmmmm, nah, I'll just go to the museum and feast on the general collection for free. :wink:

 

[troutface]

even to objectively higher quality beer

Please tell me how one beer may be objectively better than another.