Glocks are as Generic as a 1911

[Sig]

In a gun safety class in Cincinnati I attended long ago played us a dash cam video from a police officer doing a traffic stop on the highway. A fire fight ends up taking place between the Cop and the driver. The Cop tries to fire but nothing happens. You can hear him yelling shoot shoot shoot. But nothing is happening. The problem...... His weapon is on safe, and his brain is stressed in this adrenaline maxed situation. The police officer ended up getting killed sadly. My point to all of this is, you can train and train and train but when the moment comes your mind is racing and we don't always perform to how we train. If the Cop would have been carrying a Glock or firearm without a safety, he'd likely still be alive. I carry a Sig P365 quite a bit and it has a safety, and they make ones without it, it drives me nuts mine has a safety. So I train with it of coarse, but I much prefer carrying a Glock. I wish the Glock 43 could hold 10+1. Or I wish the G26 could fit in my pocket.

We teach all cops to carry locked, loaded and safety off. If they are not comfortable with that, there are some "drills) we suggest.
Wear your duty holster around your house with your gun charged, but not loaded. Then count the number of times the gun just "goes off". After 2 decades, the number is zero.
(Assuming they aren't carrying a Sig 320 )
This also works great for civilians that are worried about carrying loaded with the thumb safety off, or carrying a gun without a thumb safety.
We also suggest unholstering and holstering many times with the unloaded but charged handgun.
The vast majority of negligent discharges happen while reholstering.

 

[telescopes]

In a gun safety class in Cincinnati I attended long ago played us a dash cam video from a police officer doing a traffic stop on the highway. A fire fight ends up taking place between the Cop and the driver. The Cop tries to fire but nothing happens. You can hear him yelling shoot shoot shoot. But nothing is happening. The problem...... His weapon is on safe, and his brain is stressed in this adrenaline maxed situation. The police officer ended up getting killed sadly. My point to all of this is, you can train and train and train but when the moment comes your mind is racing and we don't always perform to how we train. If the Cop would have been carrying a Glock or firearm without a safety, he'd likely still be alive. I carry a Sig P365 quite a bit and it has a safety, and they make ones without it, it drives me nuts mine has a safety. So I train with it of coarse, but I much prefer carrying a Glock. I wish the Glock 43 could hold 10+1. Or I wish the G26 could fit in my pocket.

At the range, I practice shooting with my 1911s with the safety on so that flipping the thumb safety before shooting becomes muscle memory. But I agree - is it memory enough if I am ever in a high stakes situation?

 

[Sig]

I share the sentiment. I grew up with a culture of guns in the home as well as a tradition of hunting. Not one gun that I either bought or built was purchased or made to "protect myself" from people nor have I specifically thought about shooting a person.

No, the gun was purchased either as a hunting tool or something to use at the target range. I have a CCW - and I do carry from time to time - but the CCW was mostly obtained to keep me legal when I going to the range or I do choose to carry when traveling.

I had one negligent discharge in over a half century of using guns. I had cleaned my Glock and as I always do, I did a safety check. Well, in California, a few of my pistols have the feature where you have to put the magazine in to discharge the trigger. So, without thinking about it, I put the magazine in, racked the slide, pointed the pistol toward my brick wall and pulled the trigger. Bang. I had failed to unload the last magazine. Needless to say I was not happy, but, I was glad to see that years of practiced had meant that the pistol was pointed in the most safe direction. Lesson learned. I was mad at myself - and still am, for going through the motions so routinely that I failed to see the loaded magazine during the safety check.

Absolutely.
I'll just add that even if you do carry a gun everywhere you go, that doesn't mean you plan on using it. A gun on your hip is to SAVE lives, not TAKE lives. I absolutely dred ever having to use a gun in a self defense situation against a human. But, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
In my opinion.

 

[Sig]

I share the sentiment. I grew up with a culture of guns in the home as well as a tradition of hunting. Not one gun that I either bought or built was purchased or made to "protect myself" from people nor have I specifically thought about shooting a person.

No, the gun was purchased either as a hunting tool or something to use at the target range. I have a CCW - and I do carry from time to time - but the CCW was mostly obtained to keep me legal when I going to the range or I do choose to carry when traveling.

I had one negligent discharge in over a half century of using guns. I had cleaned my Glock and as I always do, I did a safety check. Well, in California, a few of my pistols have the feature where you have to put the magazine in to discharge the trigger. So, without thinking about it, I put the magazine in, racked the slide, pointed the pistol toward my brick wall and pulled the trigger. Bang. I had failed to unload the last magazine. Needless to say I was not happy, but, I was glad to see that years of practiced had meant that the pistol was pointed in the most safe direction. Lesson learned. I was mad at myself - and still am, for going through the motions so routinely that I failed to see the loaded magazine during the safety check.

Luckily I've never had an NG.
But, there was a near fatal one on my range one time.
During a defensive revolver class a student with a 6 round cylinder THOUGHT he had fired all six.
The way he checked that was to point the gun to his left at the guy next to him, and pulling the trigger.
Well, he had only fired 5 rounds.
The wayward 38SP round missed the guy next to him by inches.....aimed towards the guys head.
Bad day.

 

[Briar Lee]

The things I've heard in deposition(or opinions before that) would make your blood boil. Many lawyers will say or do ANYTHING, including finding the most anti gun groups to gather their information.
The one I hear most often......
"If you have a gun, it means you plan on using it." The connotation is that you will use it for unlawful purposes.
Being in the "business" and running classes for decades, I know this couldn't be more false....obviously.
I know the majority of gun owners haven't fired a gun in years. That sounds odd, but it's true. Many haven't even seen their gun in years.
Which is another issue all together, and why 2x a year we run an "almost" free class for gun owners who are not gun people. But that's another story.

I’ve been an annual member of the NRA since 1972 and a life member since 1990.

We gun lovers who own so many guns we can’t count them have won battle after battle all that time, until it’s come to the point my wife who I love dearly, nags at me for not having a pistol in the car and I have to stop for ten minutes at Collins to buy her a nine with a safety, like a spare tire and jack, for $200.

With all our success in gun availability we ought to consider untold millions of people who sort of hate guns all have a gun now.

Until about twenty years ago in Missouri a handgun required a five dollar permit from the sheriff’s office. Whether that saved lives was debatable but it sure cut back on impulse buying of handguns.

It would be impossible today to pick a jury in rural Missouri without the vast majority if not all of them having a plastic framed pistol in the home.

If adults do stupid stuff and one dies that’s a tragedy.

If a kid dies, you’d better be prepared to meet new friends in prison.

Everybody is their own Glock expert today.

We wanted this, now we must live with it.

Yes, there is still a legal threat to gun ownership, from the government.

The far bigger threat is we won’t want the liability that comes along with gun ownership.

 

[MortarMessiah]

At the range, I practice shooting with my 1911s with the safety on so that flipping the thumb safety before shooting becomes muscle memory. But I agree - is it memory enough if I am ever in a high stakes situation?

Well if your training all the time, I agree muscle memory will have you performing like your riding a bike. In the Corps. we ran hundreds of drills over and over. All kinds of training as an infantryman, and your right with muscle memory everything becomes second nature. But your talking about guys who are training all the time. The average civilian doesn't do this, doesn't have the time or money to do this, or just simply don't do it, they go once or twice a year maybe if at all. In their situation they would be better served with the simplest firearm possible. It doesn't get any simpler than a Glock, where the only switch is the bang switch.

 

[Sig]

Well if your training all the time, I agree muscle memory will have you performing like your riding a bike. In the Corps. we ran hundreds of drills over and over. All kinds of training as an infantryman, and your right with muscle memory everything becomes second nature. But your talking about guys who are training all the time. The average civilian doesn't do this, doesn't have the time or money to do this, or just simply don't do it, they go once or twice a year maybe if at all. In their situation they would be better served with the simplest firearm possible. It doesn't get any simpler than a Glock, where the only switch is the bang switch.

I always suggest a double action revolver with a 10+ pound trigger.
I had mentioned this in a previous post, but I'll elaborate.
Two times a year we offer FREE (nearly) classes for gun owners who aren't gun people.
These are for the people that have their dad's old 38SP revolver tucked in a drawer....just in case. Or the people who buy a handgun or long gun for home protection but never plan on firing it until they need to.
You are absolutely correct, these people don't want to spend the money, or take the time to train, or even practice. I guess they assume they will figure it out in the dark hallway with an aggressive intruder.
We just show them how to safely load, unload, store and use their firearm. The only thing we ask is they bring a minimum of 50 rounds of range ammo for their gun. That's why the class is "nearly" free.
We also go over their local justification laws and what to do AFTER they were forced to use their firearm.
We live in a rural area, so we were not sure how this would go over. The first class we had 64 people sign up. We broke that into 3 groups......then added a second class for the next year.
Over the last 4 years, this has become a very popular class.
We have had 70 year old women and 21 year old college kids. I honestly believe these classes are helping keep people safe and out of prison.

 

[telescopes]

It doesn't get any simpler than a Glock, where the only switch is the bang switch.

Honestly - that is just the simple truth of it all. Anything else is just opinions. The Taurus G2 that has been mentioned many times in this thread is a reliable and decent gun. I will be selling it off as I pair down my guns. The Glock will stay with me to the end. And as much as I prefer my 1911s for all sorts of reasons, The Glock will always be the choice in a pinch. Lots of great makers out there. But only one serves up the title, AK-47 of pistols.

 

[Sig]

I’ve been an annual member of the NRA since 1972 and a life member since 1990.

We gun lovers who own so many guns we can’t count them have won battle after battle all that time, until it’s come to the point my wife who I love dearly, nags at me for not having a pistol in the car and I have to stop for ten minutes at Collins to buy her a nine with a safety, like a spare tire and jack, for $200.

With all our success in gun availability we ought to consider untold millions of people who sort of hate guns all have a gun now.

Until about twenty years ago in Missouri a handgun required a five dollar permit from the sheriff’s office. Whether that saved lives was debatable but it sure cut back on impulse buying of handguns.

It would be impossible today to pick a jury in rural Missouri without the vast majority if not all of them having a plastic framed pistol in the home.

If adults do stupid stuff and one dies that’s a tragedy.

If a kid dies, you’d better be prepared to meet new friends in prison.

Everybody is their own Glock expert today.

We wanted this, now we must live with it.

Yes, there is still a legal threat to gun ownership, from the government.

The far bigger threat is we won’t want the liability that comes along with gun ownership.

Permits do not save lives.
I live in NYS, one of the most restrictive states as far as handguns.
We still have a lot of crimes where handguns are used.
Then there is Vermont.
Until recently, they were by far the least restrictive state, not even close.
But their gun involved crime has always been very low.
Here is the thing.....
Big cities are violent, and the vast majority of handgun crimes are committed in these cities by people who either do not have a permit, or are prohibited from owning a firearm.....the VAST majority.
So, the less big cities in the state the less gun crime they have.....science.
In NYS the vast majority of the crimes involving guns is very limited to NYC, Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo and Albany.
Where I live, most people have multiple firearms. In my 53 years of life, there have been ZERO gun crimes. Unless you consider poaching deer a GUN crime.

 

[telescopes]

I always suggest a double action revolver with a 10+ pound trigger.
I had mentioned this in a previous post, but I'll elaborate.
Two times a year we offer FREE (nearly) classes for gun owners who aren't gun people.
These are for the people that have their dad's old 38SP revolver tucked in a drawer....just in case. Or the people who buy a handgun or long gun for home protection but never plan on firing it until they need to.
You are absolutely correct, these people don't want to spend the money, or take the time to train, or even practice. I guess they assume they will figure it out in the dark hallway with an aggressive intruder.
We just show them how to safely load, unload, store and use their firearm. The only thing we ask is they bring a minimum of 50 rounds of range ammo for their gun. That's why the class is "nearly" free.
We also go over their local justification laws and what to do AFTER they were forced to use their firearm.
We live in a rural area, so we were not sure how this would go over. The first class we had 64 people sign up. We broke that into 3 groups......then added a second class for the next year.
Over the last 4 years, this has become a very popular class.
We have had 70 year old women and 21 year old college kids. I honestly believe these classes are helping keep people safe and out of prison.

A constitutional right is worthless unless one understands it and is practiced in using it.

Dirty Harry said it right the first time, "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[Briar Lee]

It’s rainy here this morning so I can’t test my G2C.

I’m playing with a 1946 Winchester Model 12 I picked up yesterday at our farm and to make that shotgun today, the way they did then, it would cost so much only the rich could buy one. The last real old school ones Winchester made cost $130 in 1964, which would be about $1,300 today and they were losing money, then.

Model 12s kept real gunsmiths in business, as did traditional Colt and Smith revolvers.


Inside my G2 there’s a striker and it’s spring and two more springs on the follower that could be replaced, but it’s going to shoot for hundreds of years, without a gunsmith.

And if it ever doesn’t shoot, buying a new one is likely cheaper than a factory rebuild.

Damn.

New guns are like disposable lighters only they are practically everlasting.

Don’t ever say guns were better then than today. They were much prettier, but today they work like nail hammers.

 

[Sig]

Honestly - that is just the simple truth of it all. Anything else is just opinions. The Taurus G2 that has been mentioned many times in this thread is a reliable and decent gun. I will be selling it off as I pair down my guns. The Glock will stay with me to the end. And as much as I prefer my 1911s for all sorts of reasons, The Glock will always be the choice in a pinch. Lots of great makers out there. But only one serves up the title, AK-47 of pistols.

You may be surprised how many people cannot figure out an auto loading handgun.
And how many people cannot rack a slide. This is why we always suggest a j frame revolver in 38SP or 327 Federal, or a mid size revolver in 357 magnum (Ruger GP100, S&W 686) to the people that want "easy".

 

[telescopes]

Everybody is their own Glock expert today.

We wanted this, now we must live with it.

I get it. You have an uninformed opinion about Glocks - not based on actual data - but based on an opinion that you think makes sense to yourself.

Let's dispense with the simplicity of it all. You don't prefer Glocks and you are more comfortable with something else with "safeties" you understand.

I doubt that any expert, even the one who has taken the time to pointedly and directly reply to your queries - @Sig - has professionally responded to - directly and with direct evidence.

There are many gun prejudices and the Glock is one - just as the 1911 - is one to have many critics. Just agree to disagree and move on. No harm done. You are a man of your age.

 

[Sig]

A constitutional right is worthless unless one understands it and is practiced in using it.

Dirty Harry said it right the first time, "A man's got to know his limitations."

You would be shocked to see how many people bring in "near new" handguns to sell. Many times it's after a guy dies and his wife of kids bring in his guns to sell.
Last year a guy brought in his dad's Ruger Security Six 357 magnum that still had the factory cosmoline grease in it! The guy bought it in the early 1970s. The son also brought the ONLY box of ammo his dad ever bought. A box of 50 rounds, with 6 missing. The guy literally fired the gun 6 times.
This happens a lot.
Many guys returning from WWI, Korea and Vietnam bought a home defense gun, usually a revolver, but rarely if ever used it.

 

[Sig]

I get it. You have an uninformed opinion about Glocks - not based on actual data - but based on an opinion that you think makes sense to yourself.

Let's dispense with the simplicity of it all. You don't prefer Glocks and you are more comfortable with something else with "safeties" you understand.

I doubt that any expert, even the one who has taken the time to pointedly and directly reply to your queries - @Sig - has professionally responded to - directly and with direct evidence.

There are many gun prejudices and the Glock is one - just as the 1911 - is one to have many critics. Just agree to disagree and move on. No harm done. You are a man of your age.

Let me point out, I am NOT a Glock fan boy. I'm a CZ and HK fan boy.
I have 2 glocks....a gen 1 glock 17 with the original "pencil" barrel and my glock 20 because I spend a lot of time in brown and black bear territory.
The g17 is purely a collectors piece due to it being very desirable to actual glock fan boys.

 

[Briar Lee]

Permits do not save lives.
I live in NYS, one of the most restrictive states as far as handguns.
We still have a lot of crimes where handguns are used.
Then there is Vermont.
Until recently, they were by far the least restrictive state, not even close.
But their gun involved crime has always been very low.
Here is the thing.....
Big cities are violent, and the vast majority of handgun crimes are committed in these cities by people who either do not have a permit, or are prohibited from owning a firearm.....the VAST majority.
So, the less big cities in the state the less gun crime they have.....science.
In NYS the vast majority of the crimes involving guns is very limited to NYC, Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo and Albany.
Where I live, most people have multiple firearms. In my 53 years of life, there have been ZERO gun crimes. Unless you consider poaching deer a GUN crime.

One of the things that mystifies me is these rural towns that do look like urban war zones all falling down, are basically street crime free. They look scary, but they aren’t.

Missouri permits started in the twenties to cut back on drunk kids at pie suppers shooting each other with Owl Head revolvers.

Eliminating them just raised the number of little plastic pistols in consoles and night stands.

The tragedy is those rural bombed out towns look so bad, who will ever invest a dime there except to build marijuana grow houses and small wineries and distilleries?

 

[Briar Lee]

Honestly - that is just the simple truth of it all. Anything else is just opinions. The Taurus G2 that has been mentioned many times in this thread is a reliable and decent gun. I will be selling it off as I pair down my guns. The Glock will stay with me to the end. And as much as I prefer my 1911s for all sorts of reasons, The Glock will always be the choice in a pinch. Lots of great makers out there. But only one serves up the title, AK-47 of pistols.

I agree completely.

There is a Glock and then there are imitators.

But the same could once have been said about a Ford meaning the Model T.

I’m surprised there is no Taurus G2 on the California approved list but there are lots of Glocks.

The eventual winner in the plastic nine race had better be fifty state legal.

 

[telescopes]

I’m surprised there is no Taurus G2 on the California approved list but there are lots of Glocks.

Is that a serious question, LOL. The key word is California.

If a manufacturer wishes to pay for the ridiculous testing, as well as put in the silly modification that makes the gun less safe (it can only fire with the magazine inserted), new models can be added.

The Glocks are all Gen 3s. No later models - the 3s had already been approved before certain "safety" restrictions were put in place.

You can still obtain them however. Either a gift from a parent or by purchasing one that was already brought into the state by someone who moved in from out of state. Or... buy purchasing one that is sold by a LEO. The handgun list is something that is always being litigated. The state has removed the firing pin "finger print" requirement - a nonsense requirement if there ever was one.

The handgun list was put in place as a work around to end handgun sales. That said, there are always work arounds. Some years back I was able to purchase off list guns by having them pre modified as 25 caliber and then removing the modification and replacing the proper barrel. The state caught on to that work around.

 

[Sig]

One of the things that mystifies me is these rural towns that do look like urban war zones all falling down, are basically street crime free. They look scary, but they aren’t.

Missouri permits started in the twenties to cut back on drunk kids at pie suppers shooting each other with Owl Head revolvers.

Eliminating them just raised the number of little plastic pistols in consoles and night stands.

The tragedy is those rural bombed out towns look so bad, who will ever invest a dime there except to build marijuana grow houses and small wineries and distilleries?

It's kind of funny, but not, that the anti gunners and MSM tells us that inner cities are full of gun crime because they are poor.
Well, have they never been to rural WV? Or NC? Or anywhere that coal used to be king?
These communities have a fraction of the gun crime as the inner cities.
But if we even dare say it might be the city culture, we get shot down with one magic word that starts with R and ends in T.
The rural towns have their issues, mostly drugs, but there are very few gun crimes. And I'd argue that they are far poorer than inner city folk.
In many places in rural America, there are literally no jobs within 100 miles. Even the Dollar Generals aren't hiring.
I come from a different type of rural area. We never had anything but dairy and corn. And both are still thriving. We have very little poverty, but you need to work hard for what you have.
When the coal mines closed in WV and places, the business went with them. Just many thousands of people living on welfare and food stamps.
But again, very little violent crime above an occasional fist fight.

 

[Sig]

Is that a serious question, LOL. The key word is California.

If a manufacturer wishes to pay for the ridiculous testing, as well as put in the silly modification that makes the gun less safe (it can only fire with the magazine inserted), new models can be added.

The Glocks are all Gen 3s. No later models - the 3s had already been approved before certain "safety" restrictions were put in place.

You can still obtain them however. Either a gift from a parent or by purchasing one that was already brought into the state by someone who moved in from out of state. Or... buy purchasing one that is sold by a LEO. The handgun list is something that is always being litigated. The state has removed the firing pin "finger print" requirement - a nonsense requirement if there ever was one.

The handgun list was put in place as a work around to end handgun sales. That said, there are always work arounds. Some years back I was able to purchase off list guns by having them pre modified as 25 caliber and then removing the modification and replacing the proper barrel. The state caught on to that work around.

California is ALMOST leading the way with dumb and useless gun laws. Only just behind NJ and Hawaii.
I often ask anti gunners to name one of the over 20,000 gun laws that work as designed. Their answers are always proved wrong. Why? Because bad guys don't follow the law.
I'll bet the majority of gun crimes in California are committed with guns not on the roster list......just to name one law that doesn't work.