Let alone have an honest conversation about just who is actually doing the majority of shooting that ends in death and harm.
Glocks are as Generic as a 1911
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I have lived to see a man get ten years in Missouri for leaving a loaded gun on a table.
My parents kept our two guns unloaded in my bedroom, as a child. I knew how to load them, but still.
We wanted to be able to stop and buy guns like a loaf of bread and we have our wish.
But the public demands we only shoot ourselves or other adults with our dangerous weapons.
Or else.
When they showed my friend Matt Howard the prosecutor in the Albert Keel case how easy a Glock can be fired by a child, he must have looked up a way to punish it.
Title XXXVIII CRIMES AND PUNISHMENT; PEACE OFFICERS AND PUBLIC DEFENDERS
Chapter 568
< > • Effective - 28 Aug 2024, 5 histories
568.045. Endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree, penalties. — 1. A person commits the offense of endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree if he or she:
(1) Knowingly acts in a manner that creates a substantial risk to the life, body, or health of a child less than seventeen years of age;
Xxxx
2. The offense of endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree is a class D felony unless the offense:
(1) Is committed as part of an act or series of acts performed by two or more persons as part of an established or prescribed pattern of activity, or where physical injury to the child results, or the offense is a second or subsequent offense under this section, in which case the offense is a class C felony;
(2) Results in serious physical injury to the child, in which case the offense is a class B felony; or
(3) Results in the death of a child, in which case the offense is a class A felony.
Xxxx
Class A felony in Missouri is a minimum 10 to 30 years, or life
This is more or less strict liability if a child gets your gun.
Or if you accidently shoot and kill a child.
Or if you give a kid a gun and they kill another child
The General Assembly needs to fix this to deliberately instead of knowingly
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Again, glock has nothing to do with it.I have lived to see a man get ten years in Missouri for leaving a loaded gun on a table.
My parents kept our two guns unloaded in my bedroom, as a child. I knew how to load them, but still.
We wanted to be able to stop and buy guns like a loaf of bread and we have our wish.
But the public demands we only shoot ourselves or other adults with our dangerous weapons.
Or else.
When they showed my friend Matt Howard the prosecutor in the Albert Keel case how easy a Glock can be fired by a child, he must have looked up a way to punish it.
Title XXXVIII CRIMES AND PUNISHMENT; PEACE OFFICERS AND PUBLIC DEFENDERS
Chapter 568
< > • Effective - 28 Aug 2024, 5 histories
568.045. Endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree, penalties. — 1. A person commits the offense of endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree if he or she:
(1) Knowingly acts in a manner that creates a substantial risk to the life, body, or health of a child less than seventeen years of age;
Xxxx
2. The offense of endangering the welfare of a child in the first degree is a class D felony unless the offense:
(1) Is committed as part of an act or series of acts performed by two or more persons as part of an established or prescribed pattern of activity, or where physical injury to the child results, or the offense is a second or subsequent offense under this section, in which case the offense is a class C felony;
(2) Results in serious physical injury to the child, in which case the offense is a class B felony; or
(3) Results in the death of a child, in which case the offense is a class A felony.
Xxxx
Class A felony in Missouri is a minimum 10 to 30 years, or life
This is more or less strict liability if a child gets your gun.
Or if you accidently shoot and kill a child.
Or if you give a kid a gun and they kill another child
The General Assembly needs to fix this to deliberately instead of knowingly
Ive seen a few of these cases and reviewed many more. The manufacturer and caliber have NEVER, EVER, not once had any bering on the outcome or sentence.
Any first year law student and a competent judge would not allow this.
There is actually case law making a caliber or manufacturer argument very, very, very difficult.
But I have heard these kinds of horror stories. Sounds like a great case for an appeal or a re-trial.
After the Harold Fish case in Arizona in the early 2000s, the "dangerousness" of a firearm is pretty moot point. A weapon is a weapon and dead is dead.
There is a lot to the case, but one of the reasons he was found guilty of 2nd degree murder, was because he used a 10mm, which the prosecutor made the jury believe was "over kill".
Harold was convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison. On an appeal, all charges were dropped.
There is a lot more to this case, and many disregard the 10mm aspect, but I followed the case closely.
There was also another case in Arizona where a cop was arrested because he killed a guy with an AR15 while on duty. The issue was, that the dust cover on the AR said "You're Fucked". A prosecutor brought this to trial. The cop was aquitted and now these type modifications are USUALLY thrown out.
I personally do not alter any of my firearms beyond sights and trigger, but each to their own.
All this to say, and again, dead is dead and the manufacturer and attributes of a firearm should not, and usually are not even heard by a jury.
The case you keep talking about is not a gun case as much as a bad parent case. What if the kid got ahold of mommys Xanax and died? How about if he found a knife and died? Both of those and thousands of other objects are JUST as easy as a glock to end yourself.
This type case is why I'm a very busy guy sometimes.
I haven’t read this entire thread, so I don’t know if this has been mentioned, but I’ve read the unsubstantiated folklore about self-defense cases lost because the defendant loaded their own ammunition and made it allegedly “more deadly”. This pertained to loading more effective projectiles, or at a higher pressure.
Is there any truth to this? I carry factory loads, but that has more to do with my lack of time anymore to do handloading.
Is there any truth to this? I carry factory loads, but that has more to do with my lack of time anymore to do handloading.
It was a plea. There’s no appeal.
This was not a liberal prosecutor. He was elected in Miller County Missouri. He’s my friend.
Missouri like most other states regularly “gets tough on crime” and I had no idea whatsoever there’s a charge where the prosector needs
1. A dead child 17 or under
2. The defendant knowingly (owned or provided a loaded firearm) which created a substantial risk to the life, health or body of a child
Minimum 10 to 30, or life
Geezus
Sir, are you an expert witness in firearms cases?
Yes
Was that untended gun yours?
Yes
Would you take the minimum ten or risk life?
Ordinary manslaughter is 5-15
This is outrageous.
Every hunting accident with a minor is under this statute.
I just picked up a 1945 Winchester Model 12 Trap with a Simmons Do Nut post rib from my favorite gunsmith.
There’s no way in hell I’d lend that to the local FFA trap team.
This statute doesn’t require negligence or gross negligence or recklessness.
Did the defendant knowingly do anything- that’s a substantial risk to a child.
They could charge grandpa for backing over a grandkid.
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Exactly, now you get it.
The glock lethality had nothing to do with this case. It was an unattended gun left in reach of a child.....period.
Even if the "ease of use" of the glock was mentioned in court, it had nothing to do with the outcome.
In another post you said that due to the firearm being a glock, the prosecutor thought there should be an increased penalty. But, as you now admit, the manufacturer of the firearm had no impact.
I'm glad we got that settled.
Now off for a bowl of Red Virginia Flake 2024.
Not in my experience. There have been a few cases I've reviewed where hand loaded ammunition was used. The ammunition used has never got past deposition.
Although a prosecutor will try anything, MOST of the time these things never make it to court. Believe me, I review cases in NYS and NJ.
Ive heard it all.
From trigger upgrades and magazine flares, to caliber and consealability.
Is there a difference between defending your life with a 22lr versus a 357 magnum? No
The argument with loading your own ammo is that you knowingly loaded your cartridges to be more lethal. That argument dies when you ask that 22lr versus 357 question.
It is well established that when defending your life, anything goes.
If you're in fear of death or serious bodily injury, grab a lamp, knife, bat, lawnmower, or a gun of any size or caliber.
I once wrote an opinion for a case where a woman used her husband's handgun to defend her life from a home invader. The problem was that she lived in NYS and did NOT have a NYS pistol permit. In NYS you literally cannot TOUCH a handgun without a permit....unless on a range with a certified instructor. You cannot even touch a handgun in a gun shop without showing your valid NYS permit. Even with an out of state permit you cannot touch a handgun.
I did not need to testify in this case because the judge ruled that the woman was in imminent danger of losing her life or receiving great bodily injury. The lack of a permit was not an issue and no charges were brought against her.
Another thing to mention.
Ive heard of the cases pertaining to the use of "Gucci" ammunition.
Like "Zombie" loads and "Gut Buster" ammo. None that ive seen have had any increased penalty.
All factory self defense ammunition is made to be as lethal as possible. Companies like "Double Tap" and "Buffalo Bore" load ammunition to the limits. Their 10mm and 357 magnum loads get very spicy.
Like 180 grain 10mm at 1600fps and 800fpe. If you're loading anything spicier than that, you better have a stout handgun!
Exactly, now you get it.
The glock lethality had nothing to do with this case. It was an unattended gun left in reach of a child.....period.
Even if the "ease of use" of the glock was mentioned in court, it had nothing to do with the outcome.
In another post you said that due to the firearm being a glock, the prosecutor thought there should be an increased penalty. But, as you now admit, the manufacturer of the firearm had no impact.
I'm glad we got that settled.
Now off for a bowl of Red Virginia Flake 2024.
Part of me still cannot believe Matt Howard filed this case, but he did.
Miller County, especially around Tuscumbia, is such a rough place my 31 year old son will not go there for a business deal. It truly is a high crime area, and looks it.
Albert Keel, played video games all night with a pistol beside him on the table, and when he woke up his girlfriend’s six year old had killed himself with his gun.
His intent was having pistol for self defense, which is an excellent idea in Miller County.
But you’d better unload it and secure it while you sleep.
And lending or giving a firearm to any 17 year old is a terrible idea now.
And, I can’t imagine the General Assembly fixing this.
Who can be against safety laws that save six year olds in Miller County? This is Missouri’s “meth lab” law.
I’m so glad I’ve retired.
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Adult supervision, eh . . .
There's a story in my family about my one cousin's half-brother when he was a kid. He was up at the neighbor's farm playing with the boy there. Seems they got to talking about the preparation of chickens for the dinner table, and he antics of the newly beheaded chickens before they stopped.
Happily an adult showed up at the woodshed not much later, because they had decided to take turns chopping each other's heads off to see what it felt like for the chickens.
I don't think there are any laws requiring the locking up of axes and hatchets (unless maybe NY).
There's a story in my family about my one cousin's half-brother when he was a kid. He was up at the neighbor's farm playing with the boy there. Seems they got to talking about the preparation of chickens for the dinner table, and he antics of the newly beheaded chickens before they stopped.
Happily an adult showed up at the woodshed not much later, because they had decided to take turns chopping each other's heads off to see what it felt like for the chickens.
I don't think there are any laws requiring the locking up of axes and hatchets (unless maybe NY).
Hey, NY doesn't even have safe storage laws unless there is a child under 18 in the home or there is a prohibited person in the home.
And no, axes and hatchets can be left in a child's bed like a teddy bear!
Safe storage laws are very nuanced thing. Leaving a loaded firearm unattended around a child or mental person CAN be a bad thing. But, it's not the only reason to lock up your guns. A large amount of guns used in crime are stolen. Either from an automobile, a home, or a business.
In my opinion, if you are not home, your guns need to be in a safe, or hidden really well.
That's said, an all encompassing safe storage law is ridiculous. If you're home, with no kids, you should be able to have a firearm within reach. Not in a locked safe 3 rooms away.
When I'm home sitting around, here is what I'm looking at.
And yes, there is dog hair everywhere!!!!
Well, if we were allowed to have that conversation maybe "gun violence" would drastically drop. The anti gun crowd cannot have that.
Because as we know, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
The LAST thing politicians want is a well armed, well trained and knowledgeable society.
You would not believe the hoops you need to jump through to hold firearm SAFETY classes in NYS.
It's as if they don't want gun safety in the state. Even after 5 years in the Army 2nd Ranger Battalion, 3 years as a firearms instructor in the Rangers 4th training Battalion, NYS requires me to be a certified NRA instructor to teach classes. Which, this may be controversial, but that's a complete joke. I do not support the NRA in any way, but MUST be certified by them, even though my background is far above the NRA criteria.
Where we hold our classes is in PA. I hold CC classes in NYS just so NYers can exercise their rights. I would honestly do it for free.
And what about my mother, and grandmothers, who slept over loaded guns because they lived alone and were scared?
And what about all the poor people in their shanties and trailers who can’t go to sleep with their pistols on their bedside tables?
It is 10-30, or life in Missouri if your father leaves his pistol in his garden and a kid has a tragedy with it.
In the heartland of Missouri, our meth lab statutes apply to G2C ownership.
The laws should be that no man, not even a good man like Matt Howard, can use them to do that to the folks who live on Mill Street in Eldon.
Mother expresses grief following tragic shooting of small child in Miller County, Mo.
A mother in Eldon mourns the death of her four-year-old who accidentally shot himself.
www.ky3.com
—-
”I walked through the house, and there was blood on my husband’s hand. He was telling me he was sorry. He’s like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. He’s like, I didn’t know that he got it. I didn’t know he could get it. Like I didn’t know I left it out,“ said Appleberry.
Appleberry says she didn’t even know there was a gun in the house. She had told Keel to ensure things were out of the way for the kids.
”I was like, clean this up. Kids will be kids. So get it cleaned up,” said Appleberry.
——
Where was the NRA, for Albert Gabriel Edwa Keel?
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If people could realize the NRA aint helping us that would be a big step in the right direction.
Colorado is working hard to join that group of states..........
In April 1968 I turned 10 and my father took me to Carl’s Gun Shop outside Eldorado Springs for me to pick out my first .22.
This was before the 1968 gun control act.
My father recommended a $69 Marlin M39A but being a kid I wanted a new $39 Winchester 190 because it was semi automatic. Don’t ever buy a Winchester 190, because the clunkers will shoot a hundred years.
(My taste for bottom shelf goods must have started early. )
Maybe somewhere in Carl’s was a surplus M1 Carbine and there was a beautiful Colt 1911 National Match for sale. But otherwise that store was packed with customers buying new Fudd guns.
There were lots of neat guns before Glocks and Armalites.
But my mother would have never in a million years allowed a ten year old today in Missouri even access to a firearm, much less own one.
What have we lost, and what have we gained?
Carl's Gun Shop & Museum - CLOSED, 100 N Main St, El Dorado Springs, MO 64744, US - MapQuest
Get more information for Carl's Gun Shop & Museum in El Dorado Springs, MO. See reviews, map, get the address, and find directions.
www.mapquest.com
This was before the 1968 gun control act.
My father recommended a $69 Marlin M39A but being a kid I wanted a new $39 Winchester 190 because it was semi automatic. Don’t ever buy a Winchester 190, because the clunkers will shoot a hundred years.
(My taste for bottom shelf goods must have started early.
)Maybe somewhere in Carl’s was a surplus M1 Carbine and there was a beautiful Colt 1911 National Match for sale. But otherwise that store was packed with customers buying new Fudd guns.
There were lots of neat guns before Glocks and Armalites.
But my mother would have never in a million years allowed a ten year old today in Missouri even access to a firearm, much less own one.
What have we lost, and what have we gained?
30 states now have permitless carry.In April 1968 I turned 10 and my father took me to Carl’s Gun Shop outside Eldorado Springs for me to pick out my first .22.
Carl's Gun Shop & Museum - CLOSED, 100 N Main St, El Dorado Springs, MO 64744, US - MapQuest
Get more information for Carl's Gun Shop & Museum in El Dorado Springs, MO. See reviews, map, get the address, and find directions.www.mapquest.com
This was before the 1968 gun control act.
My father recommended a $69 Marlin M39A but being a kid I wanted a new $39 Winchester 190 because it was semi automatic. Don’t ever buy a Winchester 190, because the clunkers will shoot a hundred years.
(My taste for bottom shelf goods must have started early.
Maybe somewhere in Carl’s was a surplus M1 Carbine and there was a beautiful Colt 1911 National Match for sale. But otherwise that store was packed with customers buying new Fudd guns.
There were lots of neat guns before Glocks and Armalites.
But my mother would have never in a million years allowed a ten year old today in Missouri even access to a firearm, much less own one.
What have we lost, and what have we gained?
10 years ago it was only Vermont....also one of the most liberal states. Today's Democrats are not yesteryears Liberals.
Anyways, SOME states have greatly improved their gun laws...in our favor....and many have went backwards.
The irony is that the states with the LEAST restrictions have the lowest per capita gun crime.
If you eliminated ONE major city from each state, gun crimes would plummet. If you eliminated 2 cities, gun crime would not be an issue.
Again, guns are not the issue, culture and bad guys are the issue.
I remember when former sheriff David Clark from Milwaukee Co Wisconsin said that if he could arrest 30 bad guys from the city of Milwaukee, gun crime would go down 90+%. Meaning there are just a handful of bad guys doing most of the shooting. These are well known gang members who have hundreds of combined arrests.
Dozens of sheriff's from around the country agreed.
If any of you get a chance, and can ignore the targeted attacks by the anti gun crowd, read John Lotts "More Guns=Less Crime".
He outlines through evidence from multiple sources....FBI, CDC and even some anti gun groups, that with less restrictions on guns and increased gun ownership, there are less home invasions, robberies, rapes, kidnappings, and burglaries. You still have the gang on gang violence, but much less violence towards "innocent" victims.
I believe the biggest hurtle with gun laws, is ignorance. The rabid anti gunners and politicians will not change, but the average citizen who just listens to the MSM may change their views. Heck, if I believed the MSM, I would 100% be for gun control!
This exact thing happened in late 2020 and 2021. Our shop sales and beginner CC classes skyrocketed. People from 18 to 80 years old came in to buy their first firearm. I hired another instructor and added 4 monthly classes.
I cannot tell you how many of these people said they USED to be anti gun, but now believe they have no choice.
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