Hallelujah!! That explains the rusty ODF tins I've been wondering about for years!
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Comparing 40th Anniversary to Carolina Red Flake
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Hallelujah!! That explains the rusty ODF tins I've been wondering about for years!
As stated, I agree with your assessment of corporations. I would think that saying someone is passing off a “turd” as a product and that eluding to the company being less than forthright (without proof) may not meet some legal definition of slander. However, we are not lawyers here, nor are we privy to how these tobaccos are produced. It plays fast and loose with the truth to categorically state supposition as fact This is not a disservice to Sutliff but, to anyone who would like to know a truth (that we may not obtain).
Based on the information that was offered by Mike and Mary over the years, I've always attributed the quality and distinct acidic overtones to properly aged, high sugar content tobacco.
Doing simple math, a "fresh" tin of McClelland VA flake tobacco (any blend) has at least 4 to 5 years on it. I don't know any other blender, except perhaps Germain, that patiently ages pipe tobacco blends this long before introducing them into commerce.
Doing simple math, a "fresh" tin of McClelland VA flake tobacco (any blend) has at least 4 to 5 years on it. I don't know any other blender, except perhaps Germain, that patiently ages pipe tobacco blends this long before introducing them into commerce.
Wait, wait, wait... I am not saying that Sutliff is being less than forthright at all. Where did I say this? I am saying that one of their products that forum members are saying is "like a McClellands" is wrong. Companies have made poor substitutes for other products for a century now.
My estimation of this product without any "feelings" is that the Sutliff 515 RC-1 is a Virginia aromatic flavored with vinegar. (period)
Everyone else here are the ones saying this is just like a McClellands, and it is them who I have the problem with.
If the CEO of Sutliff came on and started telling us that 515 RC-1 is just like a McClellands, then YES, I'd be in his face like Mrlowercase with my eyes on fire and spittin' venom. But, this is not the case, right?
I am not, for the record, disagreeing with the uniqueness of McClelland’s VAs, or cosmic saying that Sutliff (or anybody else’s VA) are not the same. I only have difficulties with the claims of vinegar being added to blends, when there may be other explanations. I am, also, not saying that McClellands added vinegar either.
Not sure why it seems to suddenly be all that important whether a manufacturer adds some vinegar as a casing or topping. You either like the blend or you don't.
You're twisting the issue... It doesn't matter what the blenders do. It's how WE all present it. It is unequivocally evident now that McClelland's never added vinegar. It was a part of their fermentation.
Sutliff makes one where they do add vinegar. It doesn't bother me that they make a vinegar aromatic. Heck, they can make a monkey cage aromatic for all I care.
The problem is when so many people keep suggesting it to folks as a suitable alternative to a McClellands, which it is not. That's where the argument is.
I came across this video from Mike McNeill explaining how McClelland chooses VAs. Favorite quote “you hear these reviews, grassy, hay like this and that, it needs to age longer. No it doesn’t, it’s bad tobacco”
Sadly in my mind the 515 RC-1 and the C&D CRF being touted as "McClelland replacements" just proves that there will never be a McClelland replacement. Neither are similar in my mind but neither is anything else on the market now.
The 515 definitely has vinegar added in my opinion. I've smoked a lot of McClelland and a good amount of it has been 5100 but no McClelland had that 515 RC-1 vinegar smell and taste. When I take a smell of McClelland I don't want to stop sniffing it and the taste of the tobacco is delicious right from the first light. I can't take a strong whiff of the 515 RC-1 without the vinegar smell choking me up and the vinegar taste is present in the smoke for a good portion of the bowl. That said I think it's decent tobacco under the vinegar dousing and I thought I heard rumors that it was actually some decent quality leaf that sutliff had aging in a warehouse or something. Either way I've got pounds of the 515 and the CRF because both are good smokes for what they are in my opinion, even if you have to let the vinegar smell off-gas from the 515.
The only plus to sutliff dousing the 515 in vinegar is I can always taste when it's being used as a blender. I personally don't think Watch City adds vinegar to any of their blends but instead the blends with a hint of vinegar are using some proportion of the 515 that has been aired out some.
In summary, I think cosmic is right but I also think everyone arguing with him and getting him worked up is some good old fashioned entertainment so I hope it continues.
Sadly, I don't think anyone will ever replace McClellands, unless it is C&D. I say that, because all of the rest are mere blenders, not manufacturers... someone who will actually work the tobacco from field to tin.
Wouldn't it be ironic if C&D gave us the next fermented Virginia, after years of getting bounced around as being the duds of Virginias? I'd like to see it. Jeremy might have to step out of his Big Daddy Burley overalls and put on some fancy shoes.
I recall a Mary McNeil interview where she essentially said that nobody would ever recreate McClelland's style (even if they sold the formula to another blender) because nobody else was as completely obsessive about perfect tobacco aging the way Mike was.
And your basis for making this statement is... you’re a Biochemist working in the tobacco industry? You’ve got inside information from a friend? You read a lot of comments on the internet pipe boards?
I've said multiple times there are NO suitable replacements for McClelland Virginias. Like 'em or hate 'em, they were quite unique. Trying to position the Sutliff 515C or whatever is as a McClelland Red Va replacement by spraying vinegar on it would be like trying to replace Miss Universe with a cheap crack whore by spraying the crack whore with expensive perfume.
The other part of it is though, I don't much care one way or the other. I'm certainly not as passionate about it as you seem to be right now. You must be bored Michael and have some extra time on your hands.
...to make Cosmic feel safe. He's fragile right now, very fragile.
There are actual research papers out there that discuss methodologies to accelerate fermentation and aging of tobacco. And why wouldn’t there be... a blender has a sizable amount of money tied up in a crop that’s not providing return while it’s sitting fermenting/aging.
If it was as easy as some suggest, “Just spray some vinegar on it, everybody’s doing it” then there wouldn’t have need be millions of dollars spent conducting studies to investigate how to make it happen.
I’ve yet to read a paper that has a finding that states “Spray vinegar on it”.
If it was as easy as some suggest, “Just spray some vinegar on it, everybody’s doing it” then there wouldn’t have need be millions of dollars spent conducting studies to investigate how to make it happen.
I’ve yet to read a paper that has a finding that states “Spray vinegar on it”.
You know, Dude, I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Not in 'Nam of course...
I just take my pipe tobacco very seriously, and I choose very carefully what hill I wanna die on. This one... seems very worthy.
All this McClellands talk... I had to go into the cellar and rip into a bag of Red Cake. Grabbed an unsmoked Jeantet Billiard.
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