Comparing 40th Anniversary to Carolina Red Flake

[tfdickson]

Sugar isn’t the key factor in the fermentation of tobacco... Over the period of fermentation the sugars degrade. Enzymes present within the leaf and secreted by microorganisms are the primary driver. Changes to the chemical constituency and synthesis of new enzymes is the fermentation.

The whole chemical process of fermentation and aging of tobacco is quite a complex mechanism.

Whereas fermentation of simple sugars is what takes place in brewing...

I have found that generally speaking, Virginias age well- by which I mean that after being tinned or sealed in a jar, over time, they gain sweetness, smoothness, and depth of flavor.

I have found that burley does not age period- by which I mean it doesn’t change at all given the same conditions above.

I always attributed the difference to the very low sugar content of burley vs the high sugar content of Virginias. Basically age = fermentation and more sugar = more fermentation. In other words I have always thought that the sugar content was the primary driver. Adding to my conviction that sugar is the primary driver is that C&D VAs simply don’t age like McC VAs or Samuel Gawith VAs, the latter two having a much higher natural sugar content that you can determine just by taste in smoking them. You can also look at the label of the CRF tins where they list the sugar content as 8-10% depending on the year and compare that with McNeil‘s comment I mentioned above or any number of publicly available documents on the usual range of sugar content for VA tobacco. My guess is that CRF is at worst typical of C&D VAs and more likely on the high end for sugar content among the VAs they use.

One wrinkle could be the effect of natural sugar content on aging vs sugars added via casing. C&D seems to be averse to casing in general, at least compared to other blending houses.

I like CRF, really like CRF+P, and I backed up the truck for XX Flake Dark. I just don’t expect them to change much over time as they all seem to use low sugar VAs.

 

[lukasstrifeson]

That vinegar smell goes away if the tin is aired out. I learned to do this from a long term McClelland fan.

But why would you wanna let the funk out? ?

 

[craig61a]

I have found that generally speaking, Virginias age well- by which I mean that after being tinned or sealed in a jar, over time, they gain sweetness, smoothness, and depth of flavor.

I have found that burley does not age period- by which I mean it doesn’t change at all given the same conditions above.

I always attributed the difference to the very low sugar content of burley vs the high sugar content of Virginias. Basically age = fermentation and more sugar = more fermentation. In other words I have always thought that the sugar content was the primary driver. Adding to my conviction that sugar is the primary driver is that C&D VAs simply don’t age like McC VAs or Samuel Gawith VAs, the latter two having a much higher natural sugar content that you can determine just by taste in smoking them. You can also look at the label of the CRF tins where they list the sugar content as 8-10% depending on the year and compare that with McNeil‘s comment I mentioned above or any number of publicly available documents on the usual range of sugar content for VA tobacco. My guess is that CRF is at worst typical of C&D VAs and more likely on the high end for sugar content among the VAs they use.

One wrinkle could be the effect of natural sugar content on aging vs sugars added via casing. C&D seems to be averse to casing in general, at least compared to other blending houses.

I like CRF, really like CRF+P, and I backed up the truck for XX Flake Dark. I just don’t expect them to change much over time as they all seem to use low sugar VAs.

The chemical composition of the two strains is different. Plants make sugar via a process called photosynthesis. Sugar is the food the plant uses to grow.

There are plenty of research papers online that describe the fermentation process of tobacco. Don't take my word for it.

My bag of twenty year old Hershey's Kisses doesn't taste any better than it did when I bought it...

Fermentation of sugars, those that are fermentable, produces alcohol and CO2.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

I knew I should have studied Chemical Engineering instead of Mechanical Engineering. LOL TMI for me. All I know is I recently opened a 2 year old tin of Carolina Red Va Flake and it seemed to have improved quite a bit with 2 years of aging. I'm optimistic this blend will age nicely. It's not quite as full and sweet as McClelland but good all on its own.

 

[sablebrush52]

But why would you wanna let the funk out? ?

Because I like the flavor of McClelland's matured Virginias, including that funky ketchup note. I'm not interested in the flavor of the preservative (vinegar), which burns away when the tobacco is smoked.

 

[craig61a]

I think the whole aging thing has to do mainly with a reduction in some of the more off-tasting and harsher components of the tobacco’s. And if there were more sugars available in the first place, maybe that’s why the taste would seem to be sweeter.

However, from what I’ve read the products of burning sugars are acetylaldehyde and formaldehyde...

Stoving Virginias does kill off the microbes so that it won’t “age” as opposed to letting the tobacco age normally, or that seems to be the normal consensus. The resultant flavor of stoving is reportedly a sweeter and mellow smoke.

I’m not a Biochemist. I have an electrical engineering degree. I can fix old tube radios, tube guitar amps and put in a new light switch.

 

[kcghost]

I have no desire to smoke CRF but have kind of always wanted to try 40th from McC's but never enough to pay for it.

 

[dcon]

I have no desire to smoke CRF but have kind of always wanted to try 40th from McC's but never enough to pay for it.

I thought the kc was for Kansas City, and you never smoked McClellands?? Or maybe just not the 40th...

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Because I like the flavor of McClelland's matured Virginias, including that funky ketchup note. I'm not interested in the flavor of the preservative (vinegar), which burns away when the tobacco is smoked.

I still stand firm. McClellands has never tasted nor smelled to me as if someone had put vinegar on it. McClellands was 90% of what I was smoking a few years ago. It doesn't even smell close to me. It has a vinegar-like aroma, but that is a far cry from putting vinegar on it. The same aroma, but closer to what you get with McClellands is formed in the fermentation process of curing. I will hold firm till someone can drag a McClelland in here and set me straight.

 

[kcghost]

It is for KC but as a rule I don't like straight Virginias. I love VaPers, though. I've smoked tons of McClellands over the years particularly Frog Morton and his brothers. Mike and Mary are dear friends of mine.

 

[dcon]

I never got the ketchup thing either. I hate both ketchup and vinegar. I will admit, though, that I was never crazy about their straight VAs. I have over 400 tobaccos, yet I did not stockpile, nor do I now seek, any McClelland blends. This is not meant as a diss. When I was managing pipe shops in KC, I did a fair amount of business with them and have smoked a bunch of it.

 

[nukesimi]

I was under the impression that McClelland added vinegar to their Virginia blends as an anti fungal agent. From what I recall, the HH series has a blend or two that uses vinegar as well. I can't remember which blends in particular, but it's there if you look for it.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I was under the impression that McClelland added vinegar to their Virginia blends as an anti fungal agent. From what I recall, the HH series has a blend or two that uses vinegar as well. I can't remember which blends in particular, but it's there if you look for it.

It was MacBarens. Per came on here when Harris was bitching about his ODF tins rusting, and Per told him to suck it up because they were using vinegar as an anti-microbial on that one blend. And, everyone jumped to conclusions that McClelland's must have also. However, on one radio show with Mike, he mentioned that they had a very secret proprietorial fermenting process, which he alluded to it being their secrets to Virginias.

And, their blends have just never smelled like vinegar to me. However, if someone can get Mike or Mary to say likewise, then I will believe. But, of course they are very private people who would never post here. So...

 

[craig61a]

I did treat some Red Virginia with Apple cider vinegar once. I opened it up about a year later. It didn’t smell like McClellands...

Cigar smokers are famous for opining on what flavors they are getting from a particular cigar. And if you put ten of them in a room you’d get ten different opinions.

If you like a particular blend smoke it. And you don’t have to try to convince everyone else what it tastes like, because everybody’s sense of taste is slightly different.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

It was MacBarens. Per came on here when Harris was bitching about his ODF tins rusting, and Per told him to suck it up because they were using vinegar as an anti-microbial on that one blend. And, everyone jumped to conclusions that McClelland's must have also. However, on one radio show with Mike, he mentioned that they had a very secret proprietorial fermenting process, which he alluded to it being their secrets to Virginias.

And, their blends have just never smelled like vinegar to me. However, if someone can get Mike or Mary to say likewise, then I will believe. But, of course they are very private people who would never post here. So...

Harris? Bitching? Say it isn't so.

 

[sablebrush52]

I still stand firm. McClellands has never tasted nor smelled to me as if someone had put vinegar on it. McClellands was 90% of what I was smoking a few years ago. It doesn't even smell close to me. It has a vinegar-like aroma, but that is a far cry from putting vinegar on it. The same aroma, but closer to what you get with McClellands is formed in the fermentation process of curing. I will hold firm till someone can drag a McClelland in here and set me straight.

Ever spent time in a darkroom? I've spent 100's of hours developing and printing, and the smell of acetic acid, otherwise known as vinegar, is pretty unique, and very present in many McClelland blends. I'd love to drag a McClelland in, though he probably wouldn't be able to say much since it was the McNeils, not the McClellands who ran McClelland.

 

[Chasing Embers]

And, their blends have just never smelled like vinegar to me. However, if someone can get Mike or Mary to say likewise, then I will believe. But, of course they are very private people who would never post here. So...

Here are some quotes from elsewhere.

From Mike McNiel

-"McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.
The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur."

From Greg Pease

-"Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?
Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Here are some quotes from elsewhere.

From Mike McNiel

-"McClelland buys and ages their leaf in their storage building in the state of North Carolina for three to five years. During this period of time there occurs a natural "sweating" of the high sugar content leaf.
The next step is to ship the aged leaf to their factory in Kansas City where it is pressed and further aged in cake form for a period of time. Than it is further aged, in their tins, for one to two years before shipping to retailers.
The aroma, or imagined taste, is in reality a natural fermentation that takes place during this entire ageing process. Their tobaccos are of the best of high grade and quality with a very high sugar content, which enables this "natural" process to occur."

From Greg Pease

-"Many have commented on the "ketchup" odor of certain Virginia blends, the result of vinegar produced during fermentation. (I always noticed a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma in the old Sullivan Powell’s Gentleman’s Mixture.) Do tobacco processors and blenders use specifically chosen yeast, acetobacter or lactobacillus cultures to engender the results they want, or are they just letting nature take its course, as did the winemakers, brewers and bakers of old? Has anyone ever tried using Dekkera/Brettanomyces to produce a "Belgian" style pressed Virginia flake?
Pease: Personally, I’ve never quite been able to grok the "ketchup" thing. Certainly, there are some tobaccos that exhibit an acetic aroma, and with some expansion of the imagination, I might be able to find something akin to BBQ sauce on occasion, or perhaps Branston Pickle, but not ketchup. I’ve even gone so far as to open a bottle of ketchup and compare its aroma side-by-side with that of the most infamous of "ketchup" tobaccos, and I still don’t get it. I think people confuse their condiments, sometimes. Next thing you know, it’ll be mustard, and arguments will ensue over whether it’s Dijon or yellow.
More seriously, you’re right in that fermentation is the cause of this notable aroma, whatever someone may choose to call it. To the best of my knowledge, blending houses don’t inoculate their tobaccos with specific microflora in order to get these effects, but rely on the wild yeasts and bacteria that are present in their environment. One one occasion, I managed to recreate a similar effect, albeit accidentally, so I’m quite sure it’s not the result of any sort of additives; just the natural process that tobacco goes through under certain controlled conditions.
I like the idea, though, of using specific saccharomyces to excite fermentation in a tobacco. It might make for an interesting red ale. And, from the trivia department, the aging of tobacco was once referred to as lagering. Maybe beer and tobacco are linked more closely than we know."

Thanks Duane!
This reflects a lot of what I’ve been saying. Cultivating an acetic acid in the tobacco smells really different than just spraying it with a vinegar. Vinegar keeps a lot of the “fruit“ qualities that it was fermented with, grapes, apple, plum, etc... A McClelland Virginia is unique in that it smells as if the tobacco is the only fruit. It’s much more unique than a tobacco that has had a distilled or grape vinegar sprayed on it.

you can pour PGA into a grape juice, but that is VERY different from actually fermenting grape juice into a wine.

 

[Chasing Embers]

Thanks Duane!
This reflects a lot of what I’ve been saying. Cultivating an acetic acid in the tobacco smells really different than just spraying it with a vinegar. Vinegar keeps a lot of the “fruit“ qualities that it was fermented with, grapes, apple, plum, etc... A McClelland Virginia is unique in that it smells as if the tobacco is the only fruit. It’s much more unique than a tobacco that has had a distilled or grape vinegar sprayed on it. you can pour PGA into a grape juice, but that is VERY different from actually fermenting grape juice into a wine.

Some of what you sent me reflected that too. The bright yellow sample had a very vinegar note.

 

[Jwebb90]

It’s much more unique than a tobacco that has had a distilled or grape vinegar sprayed on it.

Is this what Sutliff has done with some of their recent offerings?