I was always a slave to Christmas Cheer and Yenidje Highlander.
Comparing 40th Anniversary to Carolina Red Flake
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Did you have a Mass Spectometry Analysis done to prove your hypothesis?
Maybe, but I think they were more successful with many of their innovations than other companies. I almost hate to think of McClellands as a company. they were more like a laboratory of mad geniuses, IMO. Can you imagine how taxing and tiring it must have been, trying to ferment tobaccos in house to a specific degree of done-ness, to keep a consistent blended result?
They didn't rely on a flavored sprayed casing like most companies do. I mean, they may have used casings, but not like the rest of them. I can taste a consistent casing in most Sutliff, GH&co, Lane, MacBaren, and etc... product. It's an underlying flavor used to keep blends year to year consistent. But, McClellands and even :::cough cough::: C&D rely on just the process in most of their non-aro products.
Stick to your guns man! Those mlc threads were gold! We need more mlc’s in the world. I for one, totally agree with you, I never once thought that McClelland VA’s got their famous smell (love it or hate it) from dousing their tobacco in vinegar. That was part of the charm of their VA’s, it was uniquely theirs, and when ya pop a tin of their VA’s you know you are getting something special.
Dark Star was my all time favorite. I will probably die trying to recreate that one. But, it uses a leaf similar to that one Chasingembers talked about that I grow. Just balancing the fermentation, flake process, and the stoving.... phhhht... Mike and Mary were just geniuses!
I really need to get me one of these. My wife tried to put her foot down when I got a refractometer for my winemaking, but she really liked the wines that I am making. Maybe I will use the same argument to get one of these babies.
cosmic and jwebb90, you obviously believe that Sutliff is dousing 515-RC1 with vinegar. Do you believe the same about Kringle Flake (another Sutliff product) and Carolina Red Flake? Both of these have a similar (vinegar) tin note and initial taste until they are aired out. I believe C&D states that CRF is ”natural”. How would you rectify this or is a “vinegar bath“ what customers should expect when buying any non-McClelland red?
I have had the Kringle Flake and believe it has vinegar also. It just irritates the hell out of my sinuses. I can't smoke them. (Edit, wait Kringle Flake? Or one of the other vinegar flakes like Crumble Cake) I meant Crumble Cake. Not sure if I have ever had Kringle Flake.
I have only ever had samples of CRF sent to me in baggies from friends here. It could very well be that any vinegar evaporated off before it got to me, but I never tasted any. If I had a fresh tin to pop open, I could better help you, maybe. I have been developing a taste for C&D :::cough cough::: Virginias. Their Virginia Flake bulk is awesome!! as well as their Virginia Red Cavendish. I've been blending C&D's Red Cavendish with some other stuff to increase the nicotine and give it a more savory taste.
I'll have to try a fresh tin of CRF and get back to you on that.
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My only experience with CRF was the original run. I smoked one bowl and when I opened the tin the next day it was covered in mold. In that very limited experience I did not notice any vinegar. I purchased some of the recent run but have not tried it. I did not buy and Kringle Flake, so I cannot speak to it.
Actually, I was one of the ones who got mold in their first tins also. I just checked my notes. I didn't ask for a replacement either. But, it is my thinking that if it were sprayed with vinegar that mold would have had a very hard time forming, because vinegar is a natural mold inhibitor.
But, I need to check out this current CRF... :::sigh::: but its so hard to bring myself to buy more tobacco when I have more than enough for the rest of my life.
As I have oft stated, I hate vinegar. I have found, as sable, has mentioned that, these blends that initially reek of the stuff have the smell and taste dissipate or disappear over time. There does seem, to me, to be a plausible natural explanation. Yesterday I opened a jar of Esoterica Scarborough with a few years on it. There was a an aroma that, some might call similar to vinegar. I find this smell in many of my aged VA (bright or red). The taste was nothing like a vinegar. I equate this smell to the aging of the VA. It seems like GLP was mentioning the same thing above. I, too, would believe that these blends in question seem to have been adulterously affected by vinegar. I am slightly inclined to give Sutliff and others the benefit of the doubt and say that it is a natural result. I would love some clarification from the blenders but, I have a suspicion this is an area they don’t want to touch.
As I have oft stated, I hate vinegar. I have found, as sable, has mentioned that, these blends that initially reek of the stuff have the smell and taste dissipate or disappear over time. There does seem, to me, to be a plausible natural explanation. Yesterday I opened a jar of Esoterica Scarborough with a few years on it. There was a an aroma that, some might call similar to vinegar. I find this smell in many of my aged VA (bright or red). The taste was nothing like a vinegar. I equate this smell to the aging of the VA. It seems like GLP was mentioning the same thing above. I, too, would believe that these blends in question seem to have been adulterously affected by vinegar. I am slightly inclined to give Sutliff and others the benefit of the doubt and say that it is a natural result. I would love some clarification from the blenders but, I have a suspicion this is an area they don’t want to touch.
I have found a fermented tobacco type vinegar-ish aroma in a few of the Rattray blends also. But, there is a distinct difference. Like the obvious differences between vinegar and stop-bath chemicals used in dark rooms. You can OBVIOUSLY tell that they are not the exact same. This is like confusing lemon citrus smells with oranges or limes... IT OBVIOUS.
But, only a FOOL would confuse orange juice with lemonaid. A FOOL.
Now, I respect sable, with all my heart. But, I don't see how these things are so easily confused for someone with a pipesmoker's palate. Is everyone trying to protect Sutliff?
So, you're in the MD2020 might be wine camp, ha ha. I get it. I hear that it pairs well with a nice lamb and side of lima beans.
Actually, it is blatantly obvious to me. Touch the Sutliff stuff and smell your fingers. Then do that with a freshly opened tin of a McClellands. It's no where near the same.
I am sick as shit of people trying to ram down my throat that the Sutliff stuff is anything like a McClelland. You can believe what you want, but it's like tricking yourself into believing that a cow pie is the same as a chocolate pie.
Is this a conspiracy? The forum got together while I was out and decided to drive me crazy, right?
You guys all called Sutliff had them spray vinegar on a cheap fresh flu cured tobacco and then everyone was going to pretend that nothing was wrong with this.
Next month, they are making one with cumin, a cheap booze, and armpit hair that they are going to sell as a match for the Froggy blends, right? everyone is going to pretend that they can't tell a difference.
Then on to telling people that farts smell like strawberries, and tar is the essence of flowers.
You guys all called Sutliff had them spray vinegar on a cheap fresh flu cured tobacco and then everyone was going to pretend that nothing was wrong with this.
Next month, they are making one with cumin, a cheap booze, and armpit hair that they are going to sell as a match for the Froggy blends, right? everyone is going to pretend that they can't tell a difference.
Then on to telling people that farts smell like strawberries, and tar is the essence of flowers.
Calm down my friend. You're not crazy; Sutliff is dogshit compared McClelland. Sure, Sutliff sprays vinegar on their leaf. Everybody's doing it now because that's the quicky-method of making a working man's version of McClelland red VA. Watch City does it too.
Some people really like that fake McClelland stench (the same way people get addicted to crapfood like boxes of Kraft macaroni and cheese).
For argument's sake, I think McClelland probably did use vinegar/acetic acid on their blends. But even if they did it was that was only a small contributing factor to the overall aroma, which is much more complex than plain vinegar. Nobody has come close to replicating it... which I'm actually okay with because I found the aroma revolting (while still liking their tobacco).
I would probably just overlook this for the sake of not wanting to argue any further, but the quotes that Chasingembers posted from Mike and from Greg Pease pretty much cinches it. McClellands did not add vinegar. From Mike McNeil and the Dark Lord himself.
And, about a dozen times I've gotten dog piled by people wanting to stand up for Sutliff on this. It's a small thing I know, I know... but it really grates, like if you passed by people and hear conversations like "This Boone's Farm wine is just as good as an aged Markham Vineyard Merlot," and people start agreeing. WTF!? We are pipesmokers. We are supposed to be able to taste things and discuss them. So, when someone plops a turd on the table and people start gobbling it up and trying to tell me ... "just let the turd air out a bit... it'll be fine. Bon apatite." It's crazy!
I have far from a refined palate and am actually quite finicky. However, I can discern the difference between MD and fine wine and I can detect something that, at least, smells of vinegar. I am not predisposed to slander a blender based on any of these supposed talents. I am not saying that the “vinegar bath” is not real. I prefer fact to supposition and in lieu of that, I would give benefit to a company that makes some damn fine products. (And I am far from a corporate defender).
How is it slander? Has Sutliff said that they are not spraying it with vinegar? Is spraying a tobacco against the law? No, neither if fortifying a grape juice and passing it off as a wine.
Even so... maybe it will force them to bring someone down here to stand before the forum and look us in the eye and tell us that I'm lying. Why do people want to protect a company? A company doesn't get it's feelings hurt. I'm not giving them wedgies in the playground and taking their lunch money.
It's just a company; a company is just a non-feeling entity that is established to make money. They will slit your throat to make another dollar. Why treat them like best friends. They aren't even site sponsors.
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