Burping Jars?

[cosmicfolklore]

Perhaps because the flat tins have the oxygen removed and vacuum sealed during the canning, and the pop tops do not (hence the reason GLP, C&d, and rattray's tins expand. Different type of aging going on

Have you ever had a Rattrays tin expand? I only have 20 or so, and I've not had this happen. I've heard one person report a C&D tin expanding, but then they said it was moldy. Only a few of my GLP tins have expanded, and not all of the same blend, like maybe just two of my Embarcaderos, not all of them. I do mostly have C&D tins, none expanded, and I have a pretty good variety of those. None of my McClellands have ever expanded.

The report of Rattrays expanding baffles me most, because they are paper sided tins.

 

[gervais]

This is why I moved all of my jars out to my studio. I have to keep a lot of my supplies in a constant atmosphere, so it is temperature and humidity controlled. No sharp changes in pressure. Sometimes when I open the door to leave my ears will pop, ha ha. But, I think a lot of popping is because of barometric pressure changes. Mine were popping inward with rises in pressure. Still, I am more comfortable having the rings off, so that I can tell when one loses pressure. Better to see it than to have it hidden by the ring. But, even with pops and pings, no lid has come off.

So even with the lids in the "up" bubble position (meaning you can take your finger and pop the lid up and down) is still technically sealed?

I bring this up because some of my jar lids are "sucked in", but many are not. Im pretty sure either way they are sealed as good either way

 

[gervais]

Have you ever had a Rattrays tin expand? I only have 20 or so, and I've not had this happen. I've heard one person report a C&D tin expanding, but then they said it was moldy. Only a few of my GLP tins have expanded, and not all of the same blend, like maybe just two of my Embarcaderos, not all of them. I do mostly have C&D tins, none expanded, and I have a pretty good variety of those. None of my McClellands have ever expanded.

The report of Rattrays expanding baffles me most, because they are paper sided tins.

I didn't know they were paper sided! I always assumed they were metal wrapped in paper.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

So even with the lids in the "up" bubble position (meaning you can take your finger and pop the lid up and down) is still technically sealed?

I bring this up because some of my jar lids are "sucked in", but many are not. Im pretty sure either way they are sealed as good either way

Odd, all of mine are bubbled down. You can check to see if the ones that are bubbled up are sealed by removing the ring.
Me, I'd rather know, than assume.

I didn't know they were paper sided! I always assumed they were metal wrapped in paper.

Well yeh, foil, but paper... seems like they would lose a seal if they were swollen up.
But, have yours ever swollen up? It's really hard to call someone "wrong" on the internet. But, I've just never experienced it with any of mine.

 

[Winnipeger]

The report of Rattrays expanding baffles me most, because they are paper sided tins.

???

You mean like the Sutliff tins? Not my Rattrays tins. They're metal.

 

[Winnipeger]

Well yeh, foil, but paper... seems like they would lose a seal if they were swollen up.
But, have yours ever swollen up? It's really hard to call someone "wrong" on the internet. But, I've just never experienced it with any of mine.

I don't know if I'll be able to take a picture that does it justice. But the ends (top and bottom of my Rattays pull-top tins) are bulging outwards. They're not swollen to baseballs, but they are bulging, without a doubt.

[I'm not popping any of them to see if they're moldy (which I doubt) because I'm smoking out of my jars and leaving those tins to ferment further!]

 

[Winnipeger]

So even with the lids in the "up" bubble position (meaning you can take your finger and pop the lid up and down) is still technically sealed?

I bring this up because some of my jar lids are "sucked in", but many are not. Im pretty sure either way they are sealed as good either way

They may eventually "suck in" if you leave them long enough. It seems like it depends on which blend, but most of my jar lids eventually pop in after a month or 2 (or 6) just sitting. I have a theory as to why that happens, but it's been disputed.

 

[gervais]

Odd, all of mine are bubbled down. You can check to see if the ones that are bubbled up are sealed by removing the ring.
Me, I'd rather know, than assume.

So I checked a few of them that are not sucked inward, and I can grab them by the edge of the lid and shake it around without the glass falling off. I'm going to assume they are sealed, just not vacuum sealed

 

[Winnipeger]

In wine, there is pressure, because gasses are released from their suspended state inside the liquid.

That's just false. CO2 and Ethanol are byproducts of the fermentation of sugar. Suspended gases have nothing to do with it.

C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2

there are different types of fermentations, most of which do not produce an excess of gasses.

That's also false. Most types of fermentation DO produce excess gasses. (Namely CO2). The ones that DON'T are Homofermentative and Bifidum pathway, lactic acid fermentations and acetic acid fermentation. Heterofermentative lactic acid fermentations DO produce CO2. It depends on the type of lactic acid producing bacteria that happen to be present (which is highly variable). Acetic acid fermentation doesn't produce CO2, but butyric acid producing bacteria ferment lactate to produce acetic acid, butyric acid, AND CO2 and H2.

I always assumed the reason McClelland tobaccos have that ketchup smell is because tobacco is a nightshade plant (same as tomatoes) and the presence of either lactic or acetic acid resulting from the fermentation of the sugars in the tobacco, combined with the natural plant esters reminds us of ketchup.

if a tin of Nightcap doesn't expand, then we can assume that a jar of Nightcap from bulk will not also. Right?

No. I don't agree with that. The tin of Nightcap won't expand because the excess CO2 will escape through the permeable silicone seal.

 

[gervais]

They may eventually "suck in" if you leave them long enough. It seems like it depends on which blend, but most of my jar lids eventually pop in after a month or 2 (or 6) just sitting. I have a theory as to why that happens, but it's been disputed.

More than half of mine have definitely sucked in over time, however alot are not. Pretty sure they are sealed though, none the less

 

[cosmicfolklore]

False? dissolved oxygen is what gets converted to CO2. What’s false about that? One if the biggest fallacies of home brewers is that oxygen in the top of the jar is what gets converted to CO2. How can the yeast jump up and grab O2 out of the air? Water almost always has O2 dissolved in it.
And, look up aerobic verses anaerobic fermentation. Ha ha. You are taking what you know about one type of fermentation and applying it to all. As I’ve said… what we do with tobacco is closer to bulk aging wine than alcohol production.

Anyways… have a good evening.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

I was just about to copy and paste a bunch of stuff about how enzymes create larger molecules of complex sugars in bulk aging wines… but, then I realized you just haven’t been comprehending what I’ve been saying all along. And, what does it matter? Ha ha.

You are still welcome to come check out my winery and orchard. Hell, come check out my tobacco barn.

It doesn’t matter because nothing changes. Some guy thinks his jars are burping and his tins are leaking… doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change how I store my tobaccos.

If someone reads through this, surely they’ll comprehend that yeast is not fermenting tobacco sugars into alcohol. And, they’ll realize that their tins are not all exploding.

Good conversation though. Have a good one.

 

[gervais]

report of Rattrays expanding baffles me most, because they are paper sided tins.

Just wanted to let you know that the Rattray's tins (at least the current ones) are metal. Magnets stick the sides easily.

 

[TN Jed]

Of course we do, We are not heathens

That depends on which state you live in.

 

[TN Jed]

It's like you aren't reading what I wrote. I remove the rings, and the seal is still there, and when I pry the lids off, you can hear the swishing in of air.
I'm not sure where you've gotten your ideas from on tobacco, but... I'll just play the old dog tobacco farmer card here, ha ha. You can just go convince someone else of this nonsense.

Growing up in the south canning is part of my DNA so I never put the ring on canned foods. This makes total sense but I never would've thunk it with tobacco and no heat to pressurize the jar..

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Just wanted to let you know that the Rattray's tins (at least the current ones) are metal. Magnets stick the sides easily.

Yep, I just tried too. Sticks to mine too. Mine aren’t swollen though. Must be a bad batch, ha ha.

 

[Winnipeger]

False? dissolved oxygen is what gets converted to CO2. What’s false about that?

Uuuuuh...alcohol fermentation is the conversion of sugar(s) into ethanol and CO2. The simplest form this conversion takes is when 1 mol of glucose (C6H12O6) is converted into 2 mols each of ethanol (C2H5OH) and carbon dioxide. The chemical equation looks like this:

C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2

More complex sugars involve more steps in the process, but I'll spare you the chemistry. The end result is always ethanol plus CO2. Notice the oxygen in the above equation originates as part of the glucose molecule. In fact, alcohol fermentation is anaerobic.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that dissolved oxygen is converted into CO2 in a fermentation vessel. You are correct when you say I haven't understood what you've been saying, but I now think I might understand why. If we can't agree on basic facts, obviously we can't have a conversation about minor technical subjects. Anyway, this conversation is a little ways to the left of the OP, so I'll also wish you a good evening. I always appreciate reading your posts Cosmic.

 

[gervais]

Growing up in the south canning is part of my DNA so I never put the ring on canned foods. This makes total sense but I never would've thunk it with tobacco and no heat to pressurize the jar..

I think some people go that extra mile and use hot water to pressurize. However I think most do not

 

[gervais]

Yep, I just tried too. Sticks to mine too. Mine aren’t swollen though. Must be a bad batch, ha ha.

My oldest ones are from 2019 and are also not swollen. My only swollen tin is a tin of sixpence, which adds credit to your theory on Greg Pease Voodoo Magic

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Growing up in the south canning is part of my DNA so I never put the ring on canned foods. This makes total sense but I never would've thunk it with tobacco and no heat to pressurize the jar..

If I am reusing jars, I will wash them and set them in the oven at 200F for an hour, but just to sterilize them. New jars, I just fill them up, and by the next day, they have a vacuum.