I have over 100 McClelland tins, and non of them bulge in the slightest. So that is weird that Mike said that. I also have D&Rs that use the same style. No bulges there.
Burping Jars?
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Yeah my McC tins aren't bulging either. Their tobaccos were probably more well aged before canning. I'll try to find that Mike McNeil interview (later). As far as wine production goes though, the addition of sulfites stop any further fermentation. Do tobacco producers add sulfites or sorbate to their products before canning. My guess is that there is some amount of live lactic acid producing bacteria remaining on most tobacco at canning time and some CO2 is still being produced. Again, if I'm a moron, go ahead and school me.
In the Mike McNeil interview I'm talking about he says, if you find any old bulging tins of cigarettes, send them to me and I'll give you all the Frog Morton you want. He talks about the fermentation that goes on inside the tins after canning, and that flat style tins allow gasses to escape. I'll try tracking it down later when I have some spare time.
To make it even weirder... My GLP tins came to me fresh bulging. Oh, some did develop bigger bulges over time, but it's like they ballooned up more... slowly
Why do you think that there lactic acids in tobaccos? I've not even heard of lactic being used in casings. Maleic acids, sure, and even a build up of acetic acids, especially in McC. Salicylic acid is what makes Virginias lower PH. But, aging is more an enzyme based process. It is very different from the fermentation of alcahol. Like I said, it is closer to the enzymatic reaction in bulk aging wines.
Good wines never add sulfites. That is what cheap Boone's Farm wine producers use. I would NEVER add chemicals to my wines. NEVER. why even do that to a wine unless you want to be the McDonalds of wines.
Why do you think that there lactic acids in tobaccos? I've not even heard of lactic being used in casings. Maleic acids, sure, and even a build up of acetic acids, especially in McC. Salicylic acid is what makes Virginias lower PH. But, aging is more an enzyme based process. It is very different from the fermentation of alcahol. Like I said, it is closer to the enzymatic reaction in bulk aging wines.
I'll need to respond to you later because I'm off to work right now. Sorry. Thanks for the discussion!
No problem. Sorry I came off so hot. I have this forum curmudgeon thing going on, ha ha.
This is the feedback I wanted. I've always burped cigars thinking the gas would crack my cigar as I was told 20 years ago. But, if this is true then why aren't the tins bulging ? I think I've been wasting time burping humijars. Just like always using butane to light my cigars; I don't taste a bic in my pipe. I now believe a lot of cigar stuff is bs or it would carry over to pipes. Now I'm rethinking all the other things in life. I think for supper tonight I'm going to eat with my elbows on the table and see if anything bad happens.
No problemo. I get it. Also, who the fuck am I and what do I know? Hahaha.
OK. So here's my understanding.
First of all, Mason jar snap lids are not 100% air tight because the seals are made of silicone and "silicone rubber is one of the most permeable elastomers." So there's going to be some exchange of gasses through that thin bit of silicone. It's inevitable. The same thing is happening with flat style tobacco tins. My sister-in-law makes naturally fermented beets in Mason jars. Ingredients: Beets, Water, Salt. The lids "seal" themselves as the vegetables ferment because the ring holds the snap lid in place and escaping gasses (CO2) leave a negative pressure environment inside the jar, which pulls the lid down and holds it in place. Eventually, you can remove the ring and invert the jar and the lid stays in place. No heat processing involved.
Snap lids are supposed to be heat-processed according to the manufacturer because it (I guess) softens the silicone. More importantly the internal heat forces gas out from the jar and the pressure differential is much higher than what you get if you don't heat-process. Thus a much better seal. When I started jarring tobaccos I heat-processed my jars by placing the tobacco in the jar with the lid off, placing the jars in simmering water for a minute, then removing the jar and placing the lid on it. This resulted in a good seal once the jar cooled. The lids would pop down...
But wait a minute...
These other jars that I never bothered heat-processing seem to seal themselves after a couple of months sitting in a drawer in the basement. WTF? Obviously there's a negative pressure environment inside the jar. It seems like gas is escaping faster than it's getting in. This makes sense to me. After all, Mike McNeil over on this youtube video [starting around the 7:30 mark] talks about how tobacco continues fermenting after canning. I guess what's happening is the tobacco in the Mason jars is off-gassing and the unsealed lids are allowing gas to escape, just like my sister-in-law's beets. Makes sense to me. But then this wizened and very erudite and esteemed forum member over here says, "There is no gas to escape from a jar", and I'm like, WTF? That goes against everything I know and understand about tobacco and fermentation. If there's no gas being produced by fermenting tobacco, why are all these tins gradually inflating in my basement?
Now, obviously different producers use different methods and different additives, and it's all covered in trade secrets so who the hell knows what really goes into those tins. Does PG sterilize tobacco? Are the leaves exposed to sterilizing UV rays or space lasers?
But tobacco is a fermented product, and in at least some cases, fermentation definitely seems to continue inside the tin — and inside my canning jars — which means gas is being produced, MOST LIKELY by some extant lactic acid producing bacteria. Do I KNOW this to be the case? NO. You asked why I think there would be lactic acid in tobacco. Because lactobacillus are "found in every soil and on every leaf surface." That's why I asked if tobacco producers use sulfates or some way of sterilizing the tobacco before canning. I assume not, but I don't know. I would guess flue curing would kill some (but probably not all) lactobacillus. Air cured leaves would still be covered in dormant cells. "Lactobacilli are inactivated by UV, microwave, gamma radiation, moist heat (121°C for at least 20 min) and dry heat (165-170°C for 2 h)" Is flue cured tobacco exposed to 121ºC wet heat for 20 minutes? I don't think so. But I don't KNOW.
Also, just as an addendum, I've been making beer, mead, and wine for over 25 years, so I know a fair bit about that topic (though I'm not an "expert"). There are lots of great wines that have added sulfites. Most commercial wine has sufites added. I've produced wine and mead with and without. Some GREAT mead if I do say so myself — and no — adding sulfites doesn't turn otherwise good product into "the McDonalds of wines." It just protects it from spoilage. I've opted for not using sulfites and had mead sit on the shelf for over 5 years without spoiling, so it's probably not necessary, but in small amounts it doesn't have (much) effect on flavour IMO. YMMV.
I just wanted to say that is one hell of a post #Winnipeger . 'A round of applause'
Ok, so... I agree that jars are not 100% air tight. In fact on many occasions I have said that the Mason Ball jar company has posted on food forums that tightening the rings does not tighten down the lids. They also only give a seal on a jar a two year guarantee.
This is why once the vacuum has been formed inside the jars, I remove the rings. If a seal is broken and you've left the ring on the jar, you would never know that the seal has been broken. Whereas, I can easily tell if a lid pops off.
Ehhh... I don't think many of the tobaccos that we buy in bulk have PG.
There are also two types (at least) of fermentation going on with tobacco, anaerobic and aerobic, gases are not being produced the same with tobacco fermentation as we know happens when dissolved oxygen is converted to CO2 in wine making. Period... end of discussion.
And, despite what Mike said... no gases build up in his tins. period. I've never seen it, and if someone has, please post a pic. It must be very rare, because none of mine have.
None of my jars have released gasses after a vacuum has formed.
I mean... post whatever theoretical nonsense you want, but the fact remains... I have thousands of jars without lids, with all of them sucked down. Your theories don't explain that. No rings to hide escaping gasses under lids.
This also doesn't explain why no other tins by all of the other companies do not expand.
Can I explain why GLP's do? absolutely not. It's an anomaly. And, not all GLP tins do that.
If you are ever in Alabama, come check out my cellar. I'll gladly let you select something. Most are reaching or have just gone over 10 years now.
You may also check out my winery and orchard. It's small and very new, but I'm kinda proud of it.
This is why once the vacuum has been formed inside the jars, I remove the rings. If a seal is broken and you've left the ring on the jar, you would never know that the seal has been broken. Whereas, I can easily tell if a lid pops off.
Ehhh... I don't think many of the tobaccos that we buy in bulk have PG.
There are also two types (at least) of fermentation going on with tobacco, anaerobic and aerobic, gases are not being produced the same with tobacco fermentation as we know happens when dissolved oxygen is converted to CO2 in wine making. Period... end of discussion.
And, despite what Mike said... no gases build up in his tins. period. I've never seen it, and if someone has, please post a pic. It must be very rare, because none of mine have.
None of my jars have released gasses after a vacuum has formed.
I mean... post whatever theoretical nonsense you want, but the fact remains... I have thousands of jars without lids, with all of them sucked down. Your theories don't explain that. No rings to hide escaping gasses under lids.
This also doesn't explain why no other tins by all of the other companies do not expand.
Can I explain why GLP's do? absolutely not. It's an anomaly. And, not all GLP tins do that.
If you are ever in Alabama, come check out my cellar. I'll gladly let you select something. Most are reaching or have just gone over 10 years now.
You may also check out my winery and orchard. It's small and very new, but I'm kinda proud of it.
I still do the tried and true burp because those bags can be quit the expense if your just personally growing and have jars left from years prior lol.
Somewhere in my tobacco storage facility is a mason jar with a lid that periodically "pops." I'm guessing that the removable part of the lid pops in or out slightly due to fluctuations in room temperature, but that's only a working hypothesis. I haven't attempted to figure out which one it is because I have a lot of mason jars, the process would be too much like work, and I don't really care. It's just an observation. I don't "burp" my tobacco, although I will sometimes open a jar just to stick my nose inside and give it a big wiff.
This is why I moved all of my jars out to my studio. I have to keep a lot of my supplies in a constant atmosphere, so it is temperature and humidity controlled. No sharp changes in pressure. Sometimes when I open the door to leave my ears will pop, ha ha. But, I think a lot of popping is because of barometric pressure changes. Mine were popping inward with rises in pressure. Still, I am more comfortable having the rings off, so that I can tell when one loses pressure. Better to see it than to have it hidden by the ring. But, even with pops and pings, no lid has come off.
So, I search for articles on tobacco cellaring and stuff. Many articles are archived here. Most of the articles talk about bulging tins, so it is not something from the "Esoterica Files". My guess is that many a yeast fart has built up in the tin and need escaping ...
As for jars, how rude of them to be burping ... actually, I wonder if vacuum canning creates a vacuum that is difficult for the yeasty boys and the Lactobacillus gang to overcome. But you damned well best throw out any canned goods where the lid has popped.
But not tobacco, this is a good thing. With the price of tobacco, I'm one who would keep the sealing rings ON the jar. I'm not going to use a vacuum sealer, although I have one. One article talks about a side-by-side comparison, one simply sealed with the ring and the other vacuum sealed. The conclusion was that the air in the container not under vacuum contributed to perhaps a faster ageing and certainly a better ageing in the time aloted.
So what if a little CO2 burps out from under the jar with only the sealing ring and no vacuum ... CO2 is heavier than air and so long as the jar is not disturbed, a layer of CO2 will lay over the tobacco ... however, people are hearing their jar lids ping as the temperature fluctuates in their house, meaning that the temp is bouncing from just above to just below the temp at time of sealing, which means to me that there is in fact a seal.
So, while I might write a tome on fermentation, others more qualified than I have done that. The same with the conversion of complexed carbs to simple sugars. What I have not found is any serious research on the actual things going on inside that tin or jar. Amylase (Alpha and Beta - or is it another amylase doing the conversion to sugar) ... what protein enzyme is converting large proteins into smaller components leaving volatile flavonoids to entice us ...
Then again, it would have to be the tobacco industry who would have to sponsor the research because any study into tobacco is probably not going to be funded by any government.
I'm just going to fill my pipe, relax, not worry, and have a bowl and a homebrew ... (borrowed from Papazian)
As for jars, how rude of them to be burping ... actually, I wonder if vacuum canning creates a vacuum that is difficult for the yeasty boys and the Lactobacillus gang to overcome. But you damned well best throw out any canned goods where the lid has popped.
But not tobacco, this is a good thing. With the price of tobacco, I'm one who would keep the sealing rings ON the jar. I'm not going to use a vacuum sealer, although I have one. One article talks about a side-by-side comparison, one simply sealed with the ring and the other vacuum sealed. The conclusion was that the air in the container not under vacuum contributed to perhaps a faster ageing and certainly a better ageing in the time aloted.
So what if a little CO2 burps out from under the jar with only the sealing ring and no vacuum ... CO2 is heavier than air and so long as the jar is not disturbed, a layer of CO2 will lay over the tobacco ... however, people are hearing their jar lids ping as the temperature fluctuates in their house, meaning that the temp is bouncing from just above to just below the temp at time of sealing, which means to me that there is in fact a seal.
So, while I might write a tome on fermentation, others more qualified than I have done that. The same with the conversion of complexed carbs to simple sugars. What I have not found is any serious research on the actual things going on inside that tin or jar. Amylase (Alpha and Beta - or is it another amylase doing the conversion to sugar) ... what protein enzyme is converting large proteins into smaller components leaving volatile flavonoids to entice us ...
Then again, it would have to be the tobacco industry who would have to sponsor the research because any study into tobacco is probably not going to be funded by any government.
I'm just going to fill my pipe, relax, not worry, and have a bowl and a homebrew ... (borrowed from Papazian)
This is why I keep them off. The rings just give you a false sense of security. You may have a lid that doesn't seal, and you'd never know it with the ring covering it and holding it in place. At least I will know if I lose a seal, and I can quickly respond.
Ok. Yes, all my lids are sucked down too. That's because there's less pressure inside the jars than outside them. Period.
In terms of tins. All I would say is, gas can be produced by fermentation without producing enough of it to bend metal. It would just depend on the percent volume. In the case of some blends, obviously a fair amount is being produced. Enough to turn tins into baseballs. With most, the process has either naturally or artificially been halted at the time of canning. But Mike McNeil does say the tobacco continues to ferment and I tend to believe him. You asked me where I get my information about tobacco from. My brain stores a lot of information. Sometimes it takes me a while to recall its origin. But I'm not big on opinions. I like facts and logic. I don't know why you believe there's no fermentation or gas being produced by aging tobacco. Where does that information come from? No disrespect. I'm just trying to understand why you're saying that.
Also, I never compared tobacco fermentation to wine fermentation. Wine is primarily fermented by cultured yeast. I compared it to vegetable fermentation because, uh...tobacco is a vegetable.
Thanks for the invite. I'm packing my bags. Please prepare the guest house. I only have one child and two dogs along with my lovely wife. We'll try to stay out of your hair.
Ok, ok, ok... you are stuck on a couple of things that keep dragging this out.
Other than a few of GLP's blends and maybe two of C&D's... which were tied to mold issues... what other tins turn into baseballs? What verifiable proof of tins expanding do we have?
Yes, yes, yes... but, there are different types of fermentations, most of which do not produce an excess of gasses. In wine, there is pressure, because gasses are released from their suspended state inside the liquid. In tobacco, you do not have that. No excess gasses are created, once inside the jar or tin. You do not create more volume of anything. It's a physics/chemistry issue. Even if CO2 are produced in tobacco fermentation, you do not get more volume from anywhere. Whereas with wine, as in a carbonated drink, the gasses come from dissolved gasses being released from a state of being dissolved.
Ok, how about we end it with a compromise... Yes, gasses are formed in fermentation. All tins and jars would expand if left totally organic, meaning that everyone (except GLP) has done something to their tobacco that prevents gasses and possible fermentation. Except GLP... he is the only tobacco brand that ferments and creates gasses. Therefore everyone using jars of that yucky "something done to it to stop it from fermenting" stuff is safe. 
Because if a tin of Nightcap doesn't expand, then we can assume that a jar of Nightcap from bulk will not also. Right?
Because if a tin of Nightcap doesn't expand, then we can assume that a jar of Nightcap from bulk will not also. Right?
Perhaps because the flat tins have the oxygen removed and vacuum sealed during the canning, and the pop tops do not (hence the reason GLP, C&d, and rattray's tins expand. Different type of aging going on