Article On "The Myth of Brand and Maker in Pipesmoking" Good Read
- Thread starter rx2man
- Start date
SmokingPipes.com Updates
Watch for Updates Twice a Week
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
Site Sponsors
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor
- Status
This topic comes up again and again and I have to admit, I never tire of it!
Fred Hanna's argument specifically addresses the "myth of the brand" and smoking qualities. He doesn't seem to deny the fact that some pipes are better constructed, but that they won't necessarily smoke better than a cheap piece of briar. And of course this is true some of the time - but at least in my limited experience, I am not so sure that it's true most of the time.
As an example, I have a $17 Dr Grabow (from the late '60s bought new, unsmoked ). The briar on this pipe is IMHO equal to any of my more expensive pipes and it happens to be perfectly drilled too. However, that doesn't mean it smokes as well as my Dunhills or more expensive pipes. While I enjoy the flavor of the tobacco from this pipe, the cheap tenon will sometimes cause moisture to leak out - leaving my fingers stained. It also isn't likely to last as long as my other, more expensive pipes.
To me a pipe's "smoking quality" is more than just the flavor of the smoke - it includes the entire experience, especially how well the pipe is constructed (and I am not talking about fancy gold or silver mounts, but overall quality of construction, including a well-fitted, nicely cut stem)
However, Mr. Hanna's overall point I think is true:
Fred Hanna's argument specifically addresses the "myth of the brand" and smoking qualities. He doesn't seem to deny the fact that some pipes are better constructed, but that they won't necessarily smoke better than a cheap piece of briar. And of course this is true some of the time - but at least in my limited experience, I am not so sure that it's true most of the time.
As an example, I have a $17 Dr Grabow (from the late '60s bought new, unsmoked ). The briar on this pipe is IMHO equal to any of my more expensive pipes and it happens to be perfectly drilled too. However, that doesn't mean it smokes as well as my Dunhills or more expensive pipes. While I enjoy the flavor of the tobacco from this pipe, the cheap tenon will sometimes cause moisture to leak out - leaving my fingers stained. It also isn't likely to last as long as my other, more expensive pipes.
To me a pipe's "smoking quality" is more than just the flavor of the smoke - it includes the entire experience, especially how well the pipe is constructed (and I am not talking about fancy gold or silver mounts, but overall quality of construction, including a well-fitted, nicely cut stem)
However, Mr. Hanna's overall point I think is true:
I just don't think that those who reach for a Dunhill or Charatan are merely kidding themselves or chasing prestige.
Bradley, that makes two of us, but I never let that stop me.
Again, if ALL of maker "x"'s pipes have an instantly identifiable smoking characteristic then Brand isn't a myth.
Not do I, but in my experience, there are a lot who do go for certain brand for EXACTLY that reason. When it was still permissible to smoke pretty much anywhere on the lot, I'd get a attention when I was smoking one of my Dunnies, that I didn't receive with any other pipe. One suit grinned when he spied it and said congrats, and pulled out one from his pocket. It was unsmoked...
It happens with a lot of different types of goods. That's why the advertising and marketing fields exist.
But here's something else to contemplate as you admire your ermine lined zulu with platinum wind cap and custom made mouthpiece, smoothed on the bottoms of 200 Finnish maids:
The pipe as an object may have been made over a period of weeks, but the briar from which it is derived is something that grew over decades. The wood that comprises rim of your pipe could be a decade or decades separated from the wood that comprises the heel. That makes briar a wildcard regardless of who handles it, or how it is treated.
There must be something to Dunhill's. I love mine. Otherwise, other pipe collecters would say "xyz pipes are the best, are good, etc..". Instead, you often read " xyz pipes are as good as if not better than Dunhills". So many collectors seem to use it as a standard to measure against.
The subject of engineering keeps coming up. I cant help but wonder when someone says my "XYX pipe does not smoke as good ss my YZX pipe" if they are smoking 2 completely different types of pipe geometry bowls. Below discusses this, and what types of baccy smoke better or worse in pipes of different chamber geometry.
http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2010/10/31/how-and-why-chamber-geometry-impacts-tobacco-flavor.html
http://www.apassionforpipes.com/neills-blog/2010/10/31/how-and-why-chamber-geometry-impacts-tobacco-flavor.html
These days a quality pipe that smokes well will cost you more than you think. Good briar is expensive, quality German ebonite costs more. Was the pipe dried properly. Is it nice to look at, comfortable to smoke. Most of you probably don't care if the pipe is hand made. I don't think a factory is going to fill all the criteria.,But it cost a lot less. Nobody painstakingly made sure that the quality was there. Dunhill sure doesn't. Too many of their pipes come with little problems that can stop all that joy of owning a Dunhill. The other factories are worse. So good hunting on E-Bay.Stanwell, Brigham and others have given up and sold their rights. These other guys are going to use better material? Don't think so.Briar is briar,Yes, but there are differences. and some of them mean great to ehhhhh. It comes down to what you want out of a pipe. Some really don't know what a really great pipe is like. If you got a great pipe out of a basket, lets face it ,you were lucky.Thats all. If you're cheap, lets hope you are lucky. If you want good quality, Then it will cost more these days. Good smoking to all of you, erudite and cheap.
Funny that Castello has not been mentioned what with all the hullabaloo over how their briar tastes compared to other makers. I've never owned one but that's not going to stop me from wanting to own one. The bottom line in this never ending debate is, as pipe smokers, we should be grateful for whatever pipes we own that deliver that satisfying, can't wait to smoke it again, performance. Cull the duds out of our racks and when we can afford to reach up to the top shelf, grab one and enjoy it for ALL that it is. The attention to detail and the devotion to the craft is obvious in a high end hand made and if it offers a sublime smoking experience, all the better. I am more than likely not intelligent enough to carry any weight in this conversation but it's raining out right now and my other projects are on hold. 
The good doctor certainly did not break any new ground with his paper. All one would have to do is read certain threads on this site and the same conclusions would be readily apparent.
We need to keep in mind that many pipe smokers, smoke pipes as an affectation. They are not looking for a good smoke, they are going for an image. I knew more that one professor that smoked only on campus as they thought it gave them validation, impressed the student, primarily the coeds. A least one had the same, well known brand pipe jammed in his mug every day and that pipe had never had a bit of tobacco in the bowl.
That said, if all you smoke are cobs and you glean a great deal of satisfaction from a cob, there is no need to switch to briar, let alone spend big bucks on Dunhills and the like. The same thought applies to tobacco, if you like the drug store blends, pay little attention to those who would look down on you for your "lack of taste and class." If you want to experiment with different blends, pipes, etc. do so. If you find a combination that you like . . . go with it! Great smoking pipes are sometimes hard to find in a particular price range, but they are there. Poor smokers can come from any manufacturer or artisan. With a little luck, knowledge and experience a great pipe can be found.
A piper who suggests that you would enjoy a more, shall we say. "refined" blend, may be trying to help you or may be simply be seeking validation for his own choices.
My advice to new pipers is to experiment a bit with pipes and blends, listen to those whose opinions you value and just enjoy. If you can afford the finer things in life, and owning such items pleases you, buy them. I do believe that one's chances of finding a great smoking pipe are increased when you purchase a well respected marque. Of course this all depends on the criteria you have for defining a "great smoking pipe."
We need to keep in mind that many pipe smokers, smoke pipes as an affectation. They are not looking for a good smoke, they are going for an image. I knew more that one professor that smoked only on campus as they thought it gave them validation, impressed the student, primarily the coeds. A least one had the same, well known brand pipe jammed in his mug every day and that pipe had never had a bit of tobacco in the bowl.
That said, if all you smoke are cobs and you glean a great deal of satisfaction from a cob, there is no need to switch to briar, let alone spend big bucks on Dunhills and the like. The same thought applies to tobacco, if you like the drug store blends, pay little attention to those who would look down on you for your "lack of taste and class." If you want to experiment with different blends, pipes, etc. do so. If you find a combination that you like . . . go with it! Great smoking pipes are sometimes hard to find in a particular price range, but they are there. Poor smokers can come from any manufacturer or artisan. With a little luck, knowledge and experience a great pipe can be found.
A piper who suggests that you would enjoy a more, shall we say. "refined" blend, may be trying to help you or may be simply be seeking validation for his own choices.
My advice to new pipers is to experiment a bit with pipes and blends, listen to those whose opinions you value and just enjoy. If you can afford the finer things in life, and owning such items pleases you, buy them. I do believe that one's chances of finding a great smoking pipe are increased when you purchase a well respected marque. Of course this all depends on the criteria you have for defining a "great smoking pipe."
I suppose it is possible to make great beer without a good brew meister and quality ingredients.
I suspect that depends on what your parameters are for determining what is a good beer. I suspect quality ingredients and technique are necessary. A lot of people home brew great tasting beers.
Here is some good reading ,posted two years ago by BigVAN I cant find the follow up of he gave the pipes too. http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/giving-dr-grabow-a-chance
IMHO: When you pay the big bucks for a high end brand you are paying for best materials, precision, tactile & visual aesthetics and that ephemeral smokability. The precision of a measurement system is related to reproducibility and repeatability, and is the degree to which repeated measurements under unchanged conditions show the same results. If you buy two pipes of the same style and model from the same brand you should have virtually identical smoking experiences. The "better" the brand, the more likely that is to be true. We all have bin pipes that are great smokers and that is likely a function of lucky variations of the above criteria. But you are more likely to get a dog from the bin than from a box marked Dunhill...
That was my take from Hanna's article...
That was my take from Hanna's article...
Rick Newcombe's reply:
http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/newcombe.pdf
Fred Hanna's response:
http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/bamboozled.pdf
More on Dunhill - acknowledgements to Troy:
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/lets-make-fun-of-dunhill
http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/newcombe.pdf
Fred Hanna's response:
http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/bamboozled.pdf
More on Dunhill - acknowledgements to Troy:
http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/lets-make-fun-of-dunhill
Love it! Thanks for posting.
I did read Rick Newcombe's response and so far, I think he's on the mark. An enjoyable smoke is more than just a piece of briar. Quality craftsmanship makes a big difference in enjoyment of the smoke - and this tends to come with higher priced brands. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but like I said before, myths are often rooted in fact.
I don't have time right now to read Fred Hanna's very lengthly rebuttal (I read the first page and it seemed overly defensive and a bit desperate, esp when he claimed Rick N. was resorting to strawman tactics). When I have more time I will read the entire thing and maybe I will change my mind.
But no matter what, gotta love a good debate! :
:
Reading the two articles abut Mssrs Newcombe and Hanna is a treat! Newcombe lost most of his crediblity for me the moment he used Starbucks as an exemplar of fine coffee. Starbucks is to coffee what McDonald's is to burgers, a reliable product of middling quality with three kinds of beans, burnt, even more burnt, and ashes. So what I know from that endorsement is that Newcombe is a man with deep pockets and mediocre standards. Thus the reverence for Bang shouldn't come as a huge surprise since I've read far more complaint and disappointment than paeans of exultation with regard to their pipes. They seem to produce a very uneven product.
I failed to note any desperation in Hanna's verbose reply, more exasperation at being misquoted in a glib counter argument. Neither of these gentlemen is likely going to be accused of a lack of self regard.
It's all very much fun. And if you really believe that the brand is the single most important thing, then bless you and enjoy that Venti Pipe's Peak. I'll head over to Blue Bottle or Peet's, or maybe one of several artisanal roasters who do it well.
I failed to note any desperation in Hanna's verbose reply, more exasperation at being misquoted in a glib counter argument. Neither of these gentlemen is likely going to be accused of a lack of self regard.
It's all very much fun. And if you really believe that the brand is the single most important thing, then bless you and enjoy that Venti Pipe's Peak. I'll head over to Blue Bottle or Peet's, or maybe one of several artisanal roasters who do it well.
Both of these men have also written that their POV is opinion and they respect and welcome diversity of opinions in others. So, this is all just mental masterbation between two opinions.
*Starbucks coffee is garbage. Absolutely disgusting.
*It all comes down to what each individual prefers and considers the "perfect smoking pipe". It is such a subjective topic. It's like arguing about religion or politics, round and round we go chasing our proverbial tails. Not saying it is not fun and interesting to discuss and talk about by any means though. It just all comes down to each individual's own opinions and tastes.
*My recently acquired Castello definitely, in my opinion of course, has a unique sweet and pleasant taste to it. The briar has a distinct flavor it imparts in the smoke that mixes with the tobacco that is far different from any other pipe i own or have smoked. Yes, this could just be a case of "i got lucky with the individual pipe" and that is just is a great piece of briar, or it could be that Castello pipes really do smoke differently than other pipes. Either way, the experience i had and continue to have with the Castello pipe i own will always cause me to relate Castello to great smoking great looking quality pipes. Thus, i will most likely try and acquire more Castellos in the future. Just my opinions.
*cosmic, you have just given me a new phrase to include in my vernacular with your contribution of "mental masturbation". For this, Sir, I thank you. Well done.
*It all comes down to what each individual prefers and considers the "perfect smoking pipe". It is such a subjective topic. It's like arguing about religion or politics, round and round we go chasing our proverbial tails. Not saying it is not fun and interesting to discuss and talk about by any means though. It just all comes down to each individual's own opinions and tastes.
*My recently acquired Castello definitely, in my opinion of course, has a unique sweet and pleasant taste to it. The briar has a distinct flavor it imparts in the smoke that mixes with the tobacco that is far different from any other pipe i own or have smoked. Yes, this could just be a case of "i got lucky with the individual pipe" and that is just is a great piece of briar, or it could be that Castello pipes really do smoke differently than other pipes. Either way, the experience i had and continue to have with the Castello pipe i own will always cause me to relate Castello to great smoking great looking quality pipes. Thus, i will most likely try and acquire more Castellos in the future. Just my opinions.
*cosmic, you have just given me a new phrase to include in my vernacular with your contribution of "mental masturbation". For this, Sir, I thank you. Well done.
There seems to be an awful lot of Grabow and basket pipe justification. Those who choose to spend their dollars on more expensive briars are not suckers or pretentious a-holes, they simply want a great smoke, as well as beauty of form.
Hate on, haters!
Hate on, haters!
My opinion, based on reading here and from both of these great pipe men being discussed is that there are no bad pipes. Well... except the ones that explode, catch on fire, break when you touch them, or are so ugly they burn your eyes.
As mentioned, a pipe is two holes in a material that burns at a greater temperature than the tobacco. All can be smoked if the smoker takes the time to figure out the way the pipe works best. Sure, not all pipes fit the way we prefer a pipe to work. I have my preferences, just as everyone else does. And, a good smoker fits our "way" of smoking, no more, no less.
Dunhills have a consistency. Dr Grabows do as well. There are people who will never find a Dunhill that fits their expectations. And, some people find excellence in every Grabow.
It's all subjective. When Rick Newcombe first started writing, no one in the US had ever heard of these Danish pipe makers. They were cheap artisan pipes, and he suggested we give them a try. Then, as a bi-product of his book, these cheap pipes started selling for thousands, because he had created a demand. He is accused of snobbery, but in fact he was offering something new for the thrifty pipe men. But...
Anyways, it's a pipe. The Native Americans used stone, wood, holes in the ground, whatever to burn this leaf. Then we used hot as hell clay for over a hundred years. The "worst" pipe on the market (or pipes deemed worst by smokers with preferences) is still way better than our options when Columbus landed.
Me, part of my enjoyment is the artisan pipes. But, I also enjoy learning how best to smoke my cheap beater pipes. So, do whatever floats your boat. I appreciate just reading stuff passionately written about the hobby. Heck, even conceded snobbish pipe smokers make me smile. It's all good.
As mentioned, a pipe is two holes in a material that burns at a greater temperature than the tobacco. All can be smoked if the smoker takes the time to figure out the way the pipe works best. Sure, not all pipes fit the way we prefer a pipe to work. I have my preferences, just as everyone else does. And, a good smoker fits our "way" of smoking, no more, no less.
Dunhills have a consistency. Dr Grabows do as well. There are people who will never find a Dunhill that fits their expectations. And, some people find excellence in every Grabow.
It's all subjective. When Rick Newcombe first started writing, no one in the US had ever heard of these Danish pipe makers. They were cheap artisan pipes, and he suggested we give them a try. Then, as a bi-product of his book, these cheap pipes started selling for thousands, because he had created a demand. He is accused of snobbery, but in fact he was offering something new for the thrifty pipe men. But...
Anyways, it's a pipe. The Native Americans used stone, wood, holes in the ground, whatever to burn this leaf. Then we used hot as hell clay for over a hundred years. The "worst" pipe on the market (or pipes deemed worst by smokers with preferences) is still way better than our options when Columbus landed.
Me, part of my enjoyment is the artisan pipes. But, I also enjoy learning how best to smoke my cheap beater pipes. So, do whatever floats your boat. I appreciate just reading stuff passionately written about the hobby. Heck, even conceded snobbish pipe smokers make me smile. It's all good.
These arguments never get old! Got to say that I've been enjoying the lively debate and opinions.
Here's another way to put it:
There are certain requirements I have for a pipe to be a solid, all around pleasant smoker. It needs to be well drilled - meaning that the hole should be at the bottom of the bowl, centered properly and the opening should be able to pass a fluffy pipe cleaner. If it's well drilled it won't gurgle.
The stem should twist on and off easily when cooled down. And finally, the briar should ideally impart a slightly sweet flavor.
Based on the above criteria, I believe I am more likely (not always) to find these attributes in a higher end pipe than a drug store pipe. Of course there's always exceptions to the rule and I think that's what Fred Hanna was ultimately arguing.
The problem as I see it is that he argued the point so strongly that it came across as saying that the well known "prestigious" brands like Dunhill or Charatan are no better than any other pipe. If a pipe gurgles, I am sorry, but that's a less enjoyable smoke. And a cheaper-made pipe is more likely (once again, not always) to have issues like this than more expensive pipes.
However, I think all Mr Hanna was trying to say is - 'don't get so caught up in the myth of brand that you think you're missing out when you only have cobs or basket pipes.' And I do happen to agree with that sentiment.
Here's another way to put it:
There are certain requirements I have for a pipe to be a solid, all around pleasant smoker. It needs to be well drilled - meaning that the hole should be at the bottom of the bowl, centered properly and the opening should be able to pass a fluffy pipe cleaner. If it's well drilled it won't gurgle.
The stem should twist on and off easily when cooled down. And finally, the briar should ideally impart a slightly sweet flavor.
Based on the above criteria, I believe I am more likely (not always) to find these attributes in a higher end pipe than a drug store pipe. Of course there's always exceptions to the rule and I think that's what Fred Hanna was ultimately arguing.
The problem as I see it is that he argued the point so strongly that it came across as saying that the well known "prestigious" brands like Dunhill or Charatan are no better than any other pipe. If a pipe gurgles, I am sorry, but that's a less enjoyable smoke. And a cheaper-made pipe is more likely (once again, not always) to have issues like this than more expensive pipes.
However, I think all Mr Hanna was trying to say is - 'don't get so caught up in the myth of brand that you think you're missing out when you only have cobs or basket pipes.' And I do happen to agree with that sentiment.
- Status