Article On "The Myth of Brand and Maker in Pipesmoking" Good Read

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+1 Six, well said. I enjoy these conversations as well.
Although, it is interesting that a pipe that gurgles for one person, doesn't always gurgle for the next. The way it's smoked has a lot of do with it.
My criteria is that it has to be lighweight enough to clench, not feel like I am sucking on a coffee stirer, and fit thinly between my teeth. Gurgling and the heat of the bowl is determined by the relationship between me and the pipe, IMO.

 

numbersix

Lifer
Jul 27, 2012
5,449
53
My criteria is that it has to be lighweight enough to clench, not feel like I am sucking on a coffee stirer, and fit thinly between my teeth.
Good points. I am not a clencher, so weigh is less of an issue with me - but it's a good point.
Gurgling and the heat of the bowl is determined by the relationship between me and the pipe, IMO.
Uh, oh - I feel another debate coming on! :)
I have always attributed gurgle to a hole that is set too high in the bowl. The theory (from my own experience and from reading others experiences) seems to be that a hole drilled too high allows moisture to collect at the bottom of the bowl, creating a puddle. This in turn leads to gurgle.
I can't swear I am correct on this - just seems to be the case in my (limited) experience.
As for how hot a bowl gets. Personally I think it's sometimes due to the smoker (puffing like a locomotive), but I've had pipes that just got hotter than others- no matter how careful I was.

 
When I spoke with Nording about why all of the Danish pipe makers drilled higher than the bottom of the chamber on bent pipes, he confirmed my suspicion that this was to allow the condensation a place out of the way of the draft, to prevent gurgle, not accentuate it. Bent pipes and long pipes are the worst at condensation, so this was their way of engineering the problem away. There aren't too many more options, besides a "system" approach to rid the problem of turbulence inside a bent pipe. Nording even sells his own line of rock thingies to place in the bottom of the bowl for fundamentalists who want to smoke all of the tobacco in the bowl.
Sure, lets debate, LOL. But, lets do it with books, so we can at least make as much money as Newcombe and Hanna :wink:

 

numbersix

Lifer
Jul 27, 2012
5,449
53
Danish pipe makers drilled higher than the bottom of the chamber on bent pipes, he confirmed my suspicion that this was to allow the condensation a place out of the way of the draft, to prevent gurgle, not accentuate it....Nording even sells his own line of rock thingies to place in the bottom of the bowl for fundamentalists who want to smoke all of the tobacco in the bowl.
Very interesting. Well, I can only say that I have had pipes that gurgled and others than didn't and I am convinced it wasn't only technique since the gurgle was very consistent in only these pipes, but like I say, cannot swear to what the cause is.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,744
45,268
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
There seems to be an awful lot of Grabow and basket pipe justification. Those who choose to spend their dollars on more expensive briars are not suckers or pretentious a-holes, they simply want a great smoke, as well as beauty of form.
Hate on, haters!
I don't see it that way. I certainly have my share of high end, rare, and "museum quality" pipes. I haven't experienced anyone on this forum taking me to task for my purchases on those occasions when I've posted them.
I hear more justifications coming from those who open their pocketbooks to obtain what they consider a desirable pipe, including in this thread.
Really, who cares. Smoke what gives you pleasure. Otherwise, why bother.

 

bentmike

Lifer
Jan 25, 2012
2,422
37
These arguments never get old! Got to say that I've been enjoying the lively debate and opinions.
I find it fascinating all the ado (Had to look up the word to make sure it best fit what I wanted to say. From Merriam-Webster: Full Definition of ADO 1 : heightened fuss or concern : to-do 2 : time-wasting bother over trivial details.) and hand-wringing men will endure while in the search for the perfect smoke or simply discussing briar.
In my collection I have several Dunhills; even more Petersons, a couple artisan pipes, a few italian makes and some Stanwells. What I notice about all of them is sometimes I experience wonderful and sublime smokes and other times not so much. I have one kind of pipe in my collection that does consistently provide perfect or near perfect relaxing, flavorful and enjoyable smoking experiences time after time and that is meerschaum.
The article pointed out in the OP concerns brands and makers I get that and certainly that means briar is the core of the discussion. I've just formed my own opinions based on my experiences that the enjoyment of smoking pipe tobacco is really more about the tobacco itself (or should be) than the vessel we use to aid in its combustion.
Meerschaum seems to always provide me the pure untainted flavor of the blend I smoke and nothing else. That's what makes it superior in my mind. Lets face it wood is an organic material. It soaks up moisture and tars and oils all of which no doubt influence subsequent smokes in that particular pipe. Basically it slowly festers and rots over the many heating and cooling cycles throughout its life. Of course the white stone absorbs these compounds and moisture also but I cannot sense the ghosts for better or worse that I can in my briars. I understand that sometimes the ghosts of our favorite blends also adds unique character to the smoke and that is one of the reasons I enjoy my briar pipes and feel they have their rightful place in my rack too.
Over a hundred years ago briar won out over meerschaum based on its durability, cost and factors such as supply and demand. Briar works great no disputing that but I think the whole discussion concerning briar and pipe brands made from it is really just a contest to find the best pipes made from the second best pipe making material. If a person is truly serching for that perfect smoke I think they're looking in the wrong place.
Anyways a great discussion going on. No one mentioned the white goddess so I thought I better put in a good word. Thanks guys for getting me thinking about it. And as sable and brudnod I have to agree. At the end the day smoke what you like and like what you smoke. That's what it boils down to.

:puffy:

 

numbersix

Lifer
Jul 27, 2012
5,449
53
I find it fascinating all the ado (Had to look up the word to make sure it best fit what I wanted to say. From Merriam-Webster: Full Definition of ADO 1 : heightened fuss or concern : to-do 2 : time-wasting bother over trivial details.) and hand-wringing men will endure while in the search for the perfect smoke or simply discussing briar.
lol! I recall some time ago a discussion on briars versus cobs that almost came to blows! I think we all have to occasionally remind ourselves that this is pretty trivial stuff and nothing to get hot about.
Meerschaum seems to always provide me the pure untainted flavor of the blend I smoke and nothing else. That's what makes it superior in my mind.
Funny thing about meerschaum for me personally, everything you say is true and yet I still find myself preferring my briars. I think there's a subtle sweetness that my briars impart that I guess I find more enjoyable than the neutral flavor of a meer. As always, to each his own! :puffy:

 
I have a few meers that I never use for the same reason I rarely go to a cob. I think its the aroma of the warm briar that keeps me interested in the pipe hobby as a whole. On days when I have been sick and can't smoke, I can almost be satisfied by smelling the briars. And, sometimes a blend will sing to me, until I try it in another pipe and then I realize that it wasn't the tobacco at all, but the original pipe that I had tried it in. The tobacco is almost secondary to me. Everyone is different.
LOL, "hand-wringing men" LOL, I imagine all of these guys setting in front of a computer anxiously awaiting the outcome of this debate before proceeding with their PADs. :rofl:

 

bentmike

Lifer
Jan 25, 2012
2,422
37
-Cosmic I admit it I'm a briar smeller too! I have briar pipes that I mainly only smoke Mac Baren Vanilla Cream Flakes in. After a couple days of drying they smell superb! Lol! The Latakia soaked bowls not so much. :)

 

layinpipe

Lifer
Feb 28, 2014
1,025
8
Funny thing about meerschaum for me personally, everything you say is true and yet I still find myself preferring my briars. I think there's a subtle sweetness that my briars impart that I guess I find more enjoyable than the neutral flavor of a meer.
I have a few meers that I never use for the same reason I rarely go to a cob. I think its the aroma of the warm briar that keeps me interested in the pipe hobby as a whole.
Agree. I do enjoy trying a new blend in a meer or a cob or even my morta, but the true test and the one i look forward to the most is the sweetness and unique flavor i can be sure the briar will provide. I do like the flavors that cobs and morta imparts as well as the purity that the meer brings out in the tobacco, but to me, nothing will top the beauty bequethed in the bodacious breathtaking bravado of a bold briar.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
"I smoked a bad Castello. I bet you can find a bad Dunhill. Therefore, brand is a myth."
What?
I like the response the choir director at church gave to a guy who said the music had all gotten too high these days. He'd talked to some other men, and they all agreed with him. Definitely. The music was all being written for sopranos now. They've noticed this trend over the past so many years.
"They didn't move the keys." What? The choir director told them, "No one has moved the keys of the piano. They're where they've always been." It's *you*, you dumb sons-a-beachballs. Your perception is off.
And with that simple fact, he corrected a mis-perception.
Same with "dumbing down" of pipes, maybe? Here's an author who's gone around to a bunch of old pipe smokers, saying "So many years ago it was different."
Well, 50-some years ago or so my evening beverage tasted a LOT more like milk and came from a softer container. It's so alcoholly now. :)
I'm not real smart, either. But why the heck would pipes be different than any other product on the market. Brand counts for something. It isn't just a myth. And you can't prove it's a myth just by asking old geezers like yourself. PhD? He's has PhD in pipes? (I'm thinking he probably shouldn't advertise his education unless it's pertinent to the topic).
Bottom line: You don't *get* to be a leading brand if you don't deserve it. You can't lead the pack unless there are reasons to follow you (except in diamonds, I guess). And often the knockoffs among those who are following you, learned what customers wanted *from* you. They're copying you. Or trying to. "Buyer beware" if they can't consistently pull it off.
Brand is more important than the marketing tricks used by De Beers over a century ago when they created a mystique for a crystal that until just recently was nothing more than a hard, cold glassy thing. "A Diamond Is Forever" is easily defended as the most recognized and effective slogan of the twentieth century. Most men would *not* be wise telling their fiances they found a bargain diamond for them. Suddenly, people are bragging how *much* they spent on a diamond, something that doesn't have a long history as a precious gem at all.
You know why it's so uniquely famous? Because it worked. At all. It stands out because you just can't get away with that very often, and certainly not the way *they* did. Our customers want us to "pull a De Beers" for them, and sometimes we have to tell them, "Don't try to sell yourself with statements you can't live up to. It *will* backfire on you."
Is Brand just a perception, then?
Well, what's with the "just a" in front of perception. Perceptions aren't accidents. And sometimes, they're even reasonable. You can get them to align with common sense.
An old Yiddish saying translates something like, "An example proves nothing." Go to a Dunhill wall blindfolded and pick a pipe. If it's a dud, you only know that *that* one was a dud. Go to Joe Pipemaker and pick a pipe. Get a good one? What's that tell you? That *that* one was good.
On the other hand, a long tradition of consistently producing market-leading styles with enviable smoking characteristics, becoming the standard by which other pipes are judged, earning the esteem of other industry leaders --
That's definitely added value which, for a great many people, is definitely worth the price.
And that's nothing new. It just needs repeating once in a while.
PS: Rick Newcombe has a new and loyal fan:http://www.greatnorthernpipeclub.org/newcombe.pdf
Thanks for posting his link, guys. (I taught logic, and I still don't get that other guy).

 

layinpipe

Lifer
Feb 28, 2014
1,025
8
Great and well stated response pups, that is an opinion i can respect and clearly understand.

 

sablebrush52

The Bard Of Barlings
Jun 15, 2013
19,744
45,268
Southern Oregon
jrs457.wixsite.com
12Pups and I will disagree. Your company may be the epitome of quality and truly provide the real thing. But the years I spent working on commercials and working with advertising and marketing professionals all come down to persuasion, regardless of reality. You just provided a persuasive missive regarding your company and your services to it. That what you do, and you do it well.

But a lot of branding revolves around meaningless claims and the "perception" that a brand ensures anything. That's baloney. I had a girlfriend who worked as the regional sales rep for several high end supplies of fabrics to the interior design industry. A common practice was to put an exclusive brand on fabric produced by another entity. Brand "A" would sell for $35 a yard, the same fabric with a different label would sell for $50 a yard, and with yet another label would sell for $100 a yard. You would think that buyers would catch onto this, and you would be wrong, wrong, wrong! Just amazing. Re-branding happens across a number of industries and marketing and persuasion convince people to "just believe". Brand is a myth, pure and simple.

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Sable --
Every brand? Broad brush like that?
Yeah, we'll have to disagree, I think, because I'm not going to write them all off like that.
Boy, I sure know a lot of brands that live up to their promise. And I'm awfully suspicious that there are pipe brands that do, too.

 

numbersix

Lifer
Jul 27, 2012
5,449
53
Sablebrush:
Brand "A" would sell for $35 a yard, the same fabric with a different label would sell for $50 a yard, and with yet another label would sell for $100 a yard. You would think that buyers would catch onto this, and you would be wrong, wrong, wrong! Just amazing. Re-branding happens across a number of industries and marketing and persuasion convince people to "just believe". Brand is a myth, pure and simple.
Not to pick a fight or anything :twisted:
earthquakes01.jpg

No doubt what you wrote is true in many cases and I would agree that with some brands, quality is a myth (even a downright lie).
But lets forget pipes for a minute and go back 60 years and take, for example, a comparison of an American car (back in the day) with Eastern European cars, or even British or Italian cars.
American cars were well known for their quality and longevity while these other cars were well known for breaking down. In this example - American cars became legend, the "myth" of American cars back in the 40s and 50s and 60s was rooted in fact.
Granted that "reality" has changed and so the myth has mostly died - but for a time it was true. I think the same can be applied to other industries, including pipe makers and pipe brands.

 
One of the things we learned in business class was that if a product isn't selling, most likely the customer may be associating quality with the price. So, our instinct to lower the price may be the wrong choice. Sometimes raising the price gets a product moving. And, in my experience this is gospel truth.
How many times have you been scanning the Savinellis (just for an example) and seen a pipe in a shape that you like for $50 and then keep looking through the selections because you had a little voice in your head that said that there must be something wrong with it or maybe I can find one for just a little more money to get a little more quality or style out of it.
Sure, sure this is not 100%, some people will only shop the bent and dents, true true. But, at least we can tell who these people are by the funny smell they have, ha ha!!

 

12pups

Lifer
Feb 9, 2014
1,063
2
Minnesota
Oh geez. No. 6 you got me there. Branding is different, country by country. Even for our customers. The stuff they have to do to sell in Europe makes us fall out of our chairs laughing. Often.
Like, a Swedish spec on a fighter jet they make (pretty good fighter jet). We'd read the French specs for theirs (can simultaneously track and shoot down up to five targets at once or something. And the U.S. specs for an F22 and some Russian specs.
The promotional specs of the Swedish fighter prominently listed that 1) Many parts were from America 2) The jet as a whole is completely recyclable.
BWAHhahahahahaha
Something tells me we aren't buying those over here.
Oh, and then all the "pilot comfort" stuff. A lot of European mechanized equipment places a premium on ergonomics and stylish comfort.

 
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