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pappymac

Lifer
Feb 26, 2015
3,318
4,386
Wedding photography? Not me.
Funny story, sort of. In 1976 the chief I worked for got funding approved to send me to a six week professional portraiture course. (Actually, two days a week for six week.) The instructor was a professional wedding and corporate portrait photographer in Seattle. He was very good and charged $75 for a 15 minute setting in studio. For offsite work it was a minimum $150 plus expenses. That was just for taking the photos. He made the big money on the prints.
And that was in 1976 dollars. He hired me to carry his equipment and stay out of the way for one job. I made more in two days than my monthly pay as an E-4.
Also convinced me not to shoot weddings.
 

donjgiles

Lifer
Apr 14, 2018
1,571
2,524
Do real men chimp? I dunno, but I sure did on some shots. Particularly in crowded areas. You've framed the perfect shot, timed it just right, only to find a hand blocking something important.
What is even worse is... you have been shooting this scene, like a concert for example. You are shooting, hoping for that perfect moment that reveals the artist's true personality, you think you have it so you chimp, but out of the corner of your eye you see that moment you have been waiting for, and you missed it, looking at your replay screen. My advice, keep your eye in the viewfinder and your finger on the shutter until the action is over, you have time to chimp later on....
:)
 

warren

Lifer
Sep 13, 2013
11,739
16,341
Foothills of the Chugach Range, AK
logs: I don't bother with zone shooting a DLSR. I also do little work in B/W as post software allows by to force a color shot into a very good B?W.

There are advantages and disadvantages. And, your style of use, subject matter. should have something to do with the decision.

An SLR camera, at it's basic, is simply a light tight box with a method of attaching a lens. So, they are comparatively cheap unless you desire hyper shutter speeds and such. Most require a battery for the meter and shutter. The FM2 did/does? function w/o a battery, the meter is kaput then. The world's best back-up camera back in the day in my opinion. Now I carry spare batteries. The disadvantages are of course the delayed viewing and appraising of the shots, the need foreither a darkroom or a good lab, the desire to work with the chemicals, and the cost of film. Also, in many cases, limited lens choices. Nikon is the only manufacturer which allows older, not digital designed lenses to be used on the latest body.

Today's digital cameras are relatively expense but, offer all sorts of in-camera settings, great sensors in the pro grade bodies, although the cropped bodies do very well indeed. Of course there is the ability to immediately evaluate a shot and no waiting for a lab. The "brain" in the camera handles automatic settings probably better than most shooters can. Automatic modes will give you a salvable shot probably 95% of the time. This is a God send when caught by surprise. I usually travel with my cameras set to auto. If a bear jumps out in front of the truck, an auto accident or any surprising incident occurs I can grab a couple quick shots secure in the knowledge of have a good shot. If the subject poses or the accident or whatever is static I can go to manual settings.

My Nikons allow me to set a crop mode, meaning fewer pixels but still large sized, therefore effectively increasing the length of the lens. This alone can save an entire day's shoot sometimes, the subject is simply to wary to be approached. One of the greatest advantages is that many cameras can handle very high ISO's. This means one can do away with the 15,000 dollar plus lenses. Slower lens are of course lighter and shorter and allow one to carry more gear. I'm talking shooting at 1600 ISO verses 400 without a noticeable increase in noise. Seriously, it's true! So more often than not there is little to no need to pack a tripod. I still teach that a tripod is to be used whenever possible though, even if it only makes it easier to stay on target. At my age heavy bodies, coupled to heavy lenses make a tripod convenient, even when not required.

I will aver Nikon handles higher ISO's more efficiently than Canon but, the difference is pretty near negligible and will probably be comperable with the next generation of Canon. Must be seen to believe. I can easily produce enlargements of 16x20 at 3200 ISO.

Again, if you are my age, concerned with weight, travel some with your cameras, desire interchangeable lenses, I'd strongly suggest looking into the various mirror-less DSLR's on the market. Nikon is touting their new line. Sony seems to have the best reputation though.They are light, compact and, as I've heard, deliver great photos. The range of lenses is not as great as DSLR's but, that shouldn't be a concern for most of the "enthusiast" level of shooter.

A warning to any just entering the DSLR market, there are lenses for "crop mode" cameras and lenses for full-frame. Usually each is compatable with the other but, full-frame lenses on "cropped" DSLR's will act as if they are half again as long. Put a 400 on a "cropped" body and you effectively have a 600mm lens or, there abouts. The inverse is also true with regard to bodies and lens marriages.

Hope this isn't too confusing. I also see that truly exceeded your question. Sorry. Perhaps the information will be of use to others so I won't delete verbiage.
 
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americaman

Part of the Furniture Now
May 1, 2019
943
3,101
Los Angeles, CA
I put "film is better" along with turntables and 1960 Fords are better.
Or muskets vs. modern weaponry or hunting guns.

And with PS and even Lightroom, you can make your RAW image look as "filmy" as you wish.

Film isn't better than digital, it's just personal preference. Film gives a softer look. Others prefer that sharper, high definition look that digital is capable of. You can make images look "filmy" in Lightroom and Photoshop, but currently there is nothing that can replicate the look of color film. Black and white photos can be indistinguishable, though.
 

Sloopjohnbee

Lifer
May 12, 2019
1,291
2,288
Atlantic Coast USA
For what it's worth, I loved using the zone system back in the days when I was shooting b/w and working in a darkroom. Can you recommend any resources or web sites to look at about how it gets used with digital cinema cameras? Off the top of my head I don't see any advantages but now you have me curious.
Yea, I bookmarked a few from when I got started migrating it to digital - The sites were ancient but thorough - let me look an see if they are still alive - I also know that someone wrote a book called the Digital Zone System but I don't know if it's as good as this other guy who is actually a scientist who put it together.
 
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anantaandroscoggin

Part of the Furniture Now
Sep 9, 2017
651
1,013
70
Greene, Maine, USA
Actually, Pentax lenses of any age can be used on the everything up to the latest cameras, just with varying degrees of automation (including none at all for the oldest ones) depending on the age of the lens' mount. I even have a few M42 lenses to use with a standard screw-thread adapter.

I think that the new digital Medium Format Pentaxes' mount is different from those on the older film MF cameras.
 
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Tommy Boy

Part of the Furniture Now
Mar 28, 2020
810
1,235
Michigan
I ended up ordering a Canon T - 7 camera kit. it had a couple lenses and some memory cards and stuff like that. Along with my neighbors sons lenses a fixed 50 mm stm and a wide angle or fish eye i believe. Should be a cool birthday gift for her. Thanks for your help fellas.
 

Sloopjohnbee

Lifer
May 12, 2019
1,291
2,288
Atlantic Coast USA
I agree. Video is an entirely different kettle of fish from shooting stills. I'd also agree that the debate about the zone system applicability to video isn't very helpful. It's just not a technique people in the film industry use, nor is it taught in film school as a strategy. The whole motivation for Ansel Adams developing the zone system was to overcome the limited range of tones that was possible with black and white paper. It's a different media with a different set of problems. These days we have colorists who specialize in grading video. They still confront the problem of limited latitude that Ansel Adams faced, at least in the sense that you're still fighting for detail in the shadow and in the highlights, but the solutions cinematographers and colorists use today are different. I imagine you could break down color video into zones... but nobody does that on set or in post. Cinematographers use vectorscopes and waveform monitors to figure out where they're likely to lose detail in a shot. They're not thinking about zones.
I shelved the task of getting you the websites with zone oriented stuff, but interestingly enough I found this site of TV Production and they have a page dedicated to zone with video The Zone System in Video - http://www.cybercollege.com/zone.htm
I'll get you the better truly detailed links shortly
 

logs

Lifer
Apr 28, 2019
1,873
5,070
I shelved the task of getting you the websites with zone oriented stuff, but interestingly enough I found this site of TV Production and they have a page dedicated to zone with video The Zone System in Video - http://www.cybercollege.com/zone.htm
I'll get you the better truly detailed links shortly

I read the article but didn't learn anything new. I suppose I already think this way after years of shooting photography and then video. I can see for beginners it could be still be worth learning the zone concept just to understand the basic problems of evaluating exposure.
 

Sloopjohnbee

Lifer
May 12, 2019
1,291
2,288
Atlantic Coast USA
I read the article but didn't learn anything new. I suppose I already think this way after years of shooting photography and then video. I can see for beginners it could be still be worth learning the zone concept just to understand the basic problems of evaluating exposure.
yea it wasn't great - but I figured I'd post it because it was brought to my attention and reminded me of this thread -
 
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edger

Lifer
Dec 9, 2016
2,997
22,455
74
Mayer AZ
I'm interested in the suggestion that a beginner use celluloid film and cameras. What film is available and where, and who processes it? I have a hard time feeling involved in the process with digital photography. I never worked as a pro, but I did use photography in my work, and had a longtime hobby, did some 8 mm animation at home besides, but mostly stills, and mostly b&w. Is there a real chain of availability on film and processing (not wanting to set up a darkroom, a bridge too far, though I did that at a newspaper one summer, after having a darkroom under the basement stairs growing up). Frankly, I just love the sound, smell, and feel of celluloid. Kodak Tri-X was my go-to film. That, to me, is photography -- even the wait getting back the prints is part of the creative process.
I find digital frustrating but more economical than using The Darkroom to process for me. Buying developing equipment and a scanner isn’t in my budget either. I love and understand my Pentax H3v and my Russian rangefinders far better than my digital. It’s annoying to have to master digital at my age. I just get angry and put the thing down for a month and forget everything. Luddites unite!!
 
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edger

Lifer
Dec 9, 2016
2,997
22,455
74
Mayer AZ
Actually, Pentax lenses of any age can be used on the everything up to the latest cameras, just with varying degrees of automation (including none at all for the oldest ones) depending on the age of the lens' mount. I even have a few M42 lenses to use with a standard screw-thread adapter.

I think that the new digital Medium Format Pentaxes' mount is different from those on the older film MF cameras.
My go to “normal” lens was always a Super-multicoated 35mm f3.5 m42 . I had an old H3v CLA’d by Pentaxs( a Pentax wizard named Hendrickson in Kentucky) but alas, film is too bloody expensive. That camera just feels right in my hands. I struggle with my Fuji x10 and digital in general.
 

olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,055
14,684
The Arm of Orion
Yes, but the ergonomics feel awkward to me. I just need to stop being an old fart and start taking pictures until I master it. Thanks for the kick in the ass!
Yeah, it's best to take something for what it is than to be constantly focusing on what it's not. Applies to pipes as well.

I hear you, though. I'm so used to my Canon 5DII that any slim mirrorless just feels awkward in my hands, and I hate it not hearing the mirror snap. One reason Reasons why I've stuck with my DSLRs.
 
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jpmcwjr

Moderator
Staff member
May 12, 2015
24,771
27,389
Carmel Valley, CA
I'm so used to my digital DSRL Canons that I've forgotten the days of taking minutes to set shutter speed, aperture, angle and framing, as well as hours in the dark room. While darkroom work was sometimes magical, I no longer miss it.
 

edger

Lifer
Dec 9, 2016
2,997
22,455
74
Mayer AZ
Film made a comeback around 2014 and is still going strong. Today’s film is better than what was available back in the day, barring some legendary stuff like Kodachrome, and photo labs are still around, and some new ones have popped up. Look up The Find Lab, Richard Photo Lab, and Carmencita Lab for some of the higher-end examples of film labs.

There are a few reasons for this:

Some people got into film because of the unique look it gives (myself), and others got into film because of the “hipster” trend of using old stuff to connect with the past. Either way, a lot of people moved to film a few years ago, or became “hybrid” photographers (which means you shoot a mixture of film and digital). Usually the digital camera is used at night, due to film’s limited capabilities in low light.

The best, and most expensive, wedding photographers use film due to the soft, classic images it produces. Newer, younger photographers started catching on to this, because the look of film just cannot be replicated. For many, film is the ideal look for wedding photos.

I would say the third reason people are picking up film again is how inexpensive the cameras and lenses are when compared to digital. For about $400 to $500 total you can have a body and lens that will blow away most digital cameras. Some of those old lenses are incredible, and because most people just go for digital these old lenses and camera bodies can be had for cheap. You can get a film camera setup for $50, but it might not be at the level of those $400 to $500 setups. However, certain film cameras are actually overpriced now because the word got out that well known photographers use them.

Now it seems like you see the popularization of film in an even younger group of kids. Stores like Target and Forever 21 started making Polaroid and Kodak t-shirts because it’s trendy. Maybe these kids want to be different, maybe they want to connect with what their parents used, maybe they don’t even shoot film and just wear the t-shirts for the retro fonts.
I find myself stuck between shooting film and processing digitally. The tanks and chemicals are not a problem but the scanner and post processing are daunting. Is their a “best“ way to do this economically AND more simply?
 

americaman

Part of the Furniture Now
May 1, 2019
943
3,101
Los Angeles, CA
I find myself stuck between shooting film and processing digitally. The tanks and chemicals are not a problem but the scanner and post processing are daunting. Is their a “best“ way to do this economically AND more simply?

You know, some people get one of those portable kits where you can develop your photos in your own room. But I use a local lab that charges about $8 and scans them into a digital file, along with color correcting. I don’t shoot enough film for the price to bug me.
 
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edger

Lifer
Dec 9, 2016
2,997
22,455
74
Mayer AZ
You know, some people get one of those portable kits where you can develop your photos in your own room. But I use a local lab that charges about $8 and scans them into a digital file, along with color correcting. I don’t shoot enough film for the price to bug me.
I’m most interested in b&w and online places like The Darkroom charge too much for roll downloaded. At that point I enter the daunting world of post processing. I was never more than adequate in the darkroom decades ago. Can your recommend a simpler program for post processing?
 
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