Traffic Stop

[yaddy306]

I need to get some things off my chest.
As a police officer, I vehemently object to pitchfork's insinuation that there is no such thing as an "honest cop". As a cop spending my days helping to solve murders, drive-by shootings, and robberies, helping to put gang members and wife-beaters in jail, and trying my best to contribute positively to society and protect the citizens of my city while they sleep at night, I resent the implication.
I can probably state that I know more cops personally than do most people on this forum, and can safely say that, as a group, police are as diverse as any occupation. Do some have "the brains that God gave a mouse"? Yes. Do some have postgraduate degrees? Yes (me included). Are some power-hungry jackbooted thugs? Maybe, although the ones I know are just trying to get home safe at the end of their shifts. Are they fascists? Not that I've met.
At my department, there are 385 cops. Only about 16 of these are actually assigned to traffic enforcement. Everyone else is "solving actual crimes". Unfortunately, the average law-abiding citizen gets to meet one of these 16 if they interact with the police at all. Personally, I haven't written a traffic ticket in a decade. But even the traffic guys are not interested in wasting their time tearing apart someone's vehicle in a futile attempt to find drugs. They are more interested in catching the stoned driver that just raced through the school zone, almost killing your sons and daughters (and cops have kids too, after all).
"Cops murder people", pitchfork says. Well, plumbers murder people too, settersbrace. Artists murder people, foggy. Lawyers murder, peck. Heck, housewives murder people. As tbradsim1 says, there is good and bad in all disciplines. It's simpleminded to paint everyone in an occupation with the same brush.
Should you stand up for your rights? Absolutely. Should you complain to the officer's supervisor, cuchulain? Absolutely. Am I making excuses for anyone? No. Bad cops should be exposed and rooted out, wherever they are. But making broad allegations on a forum, and using emoticons (pitchfork) is not the way to make positive change in your community.

 

[rockford]

Yaddy, well said and thank you to you and yours for keeping the peace!

 

[sablebrush52]

Interesting thread! Peck, it's great that you have 24/7 access to an ambulance chaser to do pro bono for you, but most of us would probably not want to spend the $500-800 an hour that attorneys charge for this particular purpose. Mind you, I have fought, successfully, a couple of tickets but in both cases, the call was questionable in the extreme, one of them downright fishy, and the court agreed.
I've known a lot of police over the years and in the main find them to be straight up good guys, doing a difficult job for not a lot of compensation. But like any population, there are a few stinkers.
I believe in fighting back when it's warranted and have done so with the IRS quite successfully. But in that instance I was in the right, the auditor was in the wrong, and I simply cited IRS rules, one after the other, to overturn the audit.
The most important use of fighting back for me was in the case of my mother, who had developed dementia during the final years of her life. Her doctor had prescribed Aricept and we received a letter from her insurance that their medical review committee had decided that such medicine was not "medically necessary" and as such were refusing to cover it. I wrote back and politely requested that they review their decision as I would pursue this case and at the very least, cost them a hell of a lot more money than they were hoping to save. Amazingly, within 10 working days I got another letter stating that their medical review committee had reviewed the case and had decided that the prescription was "medically necessary" and that they would cover the prescription. I'm simplifying a little bit here but the point is to pick your battles, hopefully to correct an injustice rather than for fun.

 

[numbersix]

Sorry you got stopped cuchulain. Based on the comments posted so far, this post looks like it could go downhill fast. I wouldn't be surprised to see it closed shortly.
Also -good post Yaddy. There's good and bad in all walks of life.
FWIW, Pitchfork has shown himself to be a solid member here, so I doubt he meant to attack all cops. The sad part is, myself and I am sure many others keep seeing a lot of what I consider to be "bad" press on cops. For ex., the other day someone on reddit posted a photo of a new tank their police dept rec'd (a tank!). Then for whatever reason I see frequent photos of police in riot gear, all dressed in black, faces covered, wearing helmets, etc.

This seems to be very different from the image of the police I knew as a kid growing up.

It's a worrisome trend. Even though I believe the average cop is a good guy out to protect, the image of our police is changing.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You're right yaddy. Every profession that employs humans has to deal with human flaws. The only problem is that when a grocery store employee has an issue with ego and being a bully, people don't end up with a boot in their throat on the side of the road, because we'll stand up to a grocery store employee, however when they have a badge...

And, having lived in many different states, I have never seen cops act like they do here. It's riduculous. And, I have a brother and an uncle who are policemen, just not in this state. So, I'm not just a cop basher.
Now, since we have a law officer in the thread, what is going to happen in your area if someone refuses a search? Do you think the team that conducts the search will be more (or less) thorough with their search? Will they just smile and say, "You're free to go"? Just curious. Maybe my outlook is tainted by having lived here for so long and seeing what we see here, but I just can't imagine a police officer having someone refuse a search and getting sent on their way.

 

[layinpipe]

Yaddy, i totally agree with the fact that judging and pidgeonholing an entire group of any kind is ignorant and narrow minded. I've encountered and know personally great cops and have also encountered cops that are richards and have a stick shoved up their ass. I teach and train brazilian jiu jitsu and muay thai and there are naturally many current and former LEO's who train to gain a skill set that goes hand in hand with protecting themselves in their line of work. To say that all cops or LEO's are this or that is to not use the main thing that separates us from the rest of the organisms on this planet: the ability to use logic and reason. Too many people do not these days, and it seems we are devolving rather than evolving.
Also, i don't care what anyone says, 3 mph is not speeding, that cop was being a straight up DICK. And don't even try to tell me "speeding is speeding". I have had numerous friends who are cops tell me that they(and their coworker cops) won't even bother pulling the average person over unless they are going at least 10 over. Obviously this is relative to the speed limit and excludes school zones and low speed limit areas. Also excludes swerving, no seatbelt, burnt out headlight/tail light and any other accompanying violation the driver may be demonstrating, hence the "average" driver. But 3 mph is RIDICULOUS. Sorry for your bad luck, cuchulain.

 

[rockford]

I would have to assume that by refusing a search the officer would assume that you have something worth finding. I've seen what the Border guards can do to a car in 10 minutes and wouldn't want to foot that repair bill!

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Peck: I'm disturbed by the fact that you seem to be saying you actually were speeding 7 times, but you'll did everything in your power to not take responsibility for that.

The onus is on them to prove their case. I simply put them to the task of doing so as it is my right to do, and they couldn't. If I was convicted, I would take responsibility, but alas, I was not.
Rockford, I wish the police were spending their time on more important matters than setting up speed traps as a revenue generation measure as well. That's part of the reason why I always fight my tickets - if enough people did so, they would see that there is little net revenue to be generated from it and they would move on to more socially worthwhile endeavours.
Sable, you don't need to hire a lawyer to fight a ticket. Anyone can do it. It ain't that hard.

 

[peckinpahhombre]

And by the way, I have nothing against the police - my cousin is a Toronto police officer. I think most are honest and hardworking. I think some of them are actually quite frustrated themselves by being forced to be effectively be a tax collector. Yesterday I passed a trap coming off the highway where the speed limit drops quite dramatically - they had about 8 cars pulled over and lined up waiting to get tickets. They seem to be in the same location every week, catching people who don't notice the dramatic change in the limit. Seems rather ruthless to me, but I don't blame the cops - they are just doing what they are told to do.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

Peck, my one and only time to get a ticket, I did try to fight it in court. I had heard that if the officer doesn't show up, that they throw it out. I took the gamble. Not only did they reschedule me for a day that the officer in specific was there, they made me wait till the very end of the day, when the officer came strolling in eating a taco.
Then, after I tried to explain to the judge that there was no way an '89 Town and Country van was going to jump from 0 -60 mph in 100 feet, the prosecutor turned to the judge and asked that the word of a sworn law enforcement officer be taken over the word of the citizen. The gavel fell, and my fine went from $175 to 250 to include my court costs. They all yelled "Roll Tide," and I learned my lesson about this state.
Unless one has the arguing skills and understanding of how courts work, I do not suggest they represent themself like I tried to do. I was a fool, and as I walked back to my van there were six police officers walking behind me pushing me down the hall and laughing at me, mocking my beat up van. I kept hearing, "word of the officer over the word of the citizen," ringing in my ears. Roll Tide!

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Yeesh cosmic, that is horrible. Trying to win at an actual trial can be tough. The tactic that works best for me is the pre-trial discovery process. I inundate the Crown with a multitude of discovery requests. The more information you seek the better. Rarely have they ever responded. Then at trial I just move for a dismissal on the basis that the Crown has not complied with its discovery obligations. I have never even gotten to the stage of an actual full blown trial at this point. I did have a very friendly chat with the prosecutor the last time - turns out we went to the same law school. I thanked her for her efforts and sent her chocolates. Kind of like an investment I guess.
By the way, more than 50% of the time the officer does show up - they are paying him overtime to do so, so at time-and-a-half, who isn't going to show up. If he doesn't show up - which does happen if he has other comittments etc - then you can't lose, but that is not normal. I always assume they will show up and have my cross and game plan prepped, though as I said, have never actually had a full trial yet.

 

[mso489]

cuchulain, I think you succeeded in a major way simply not getting shot. Because a lot of perps are

hotheads with firearms, the police are jumpy and hyper-vigilant. So if you can slow-walk the officer

through the traffic stop and keep it all calm and even, that's the number one objective. If you can

out-game them later in the court process, that's good, but you have to stay on this side of Jordan

to do it. Keep your hands in sight and move slow. Also, you don't want them to think your Savenelli

is a Glock, so don't keep it in your hand. Hands empty.

 

[numbersix]

I inundate the Crown with a multitude of discovery requests. The more information you seek the better. Rarely have they ever responded. Then at trial I just move for a dismissal on the basis that the Crown has not complied with its discovery obligations.

:clap:
Peck, if I were a Canadian, I'd want you for my lawyer!

 

[dhizzy]

Yaddy306,
As a fellow officer, I appreciate your stance and thanks for speaking up. It does suck being labeled and bashed simply based upon being a police officer.
To everyone else who thinks that cops are apparently, we'll lets see, fascists, dishonest, jack booted thugs. I'm not going to spend my Saturday afternoon defending every jab that has been sent our way but you guys are out of line man and you know it. I'm just a normal guy who chose that profession. And because I chose that profession I don't complain when people call me everything but a human because that's what I signed up for, right? On the street, maybe yes. I will put up with it there because that's part of the job. But here??????? No way man, this is where I come to have some peace. This is where I come to have some friendly conversation, make "friends", exchange stories and laughs. Incredibly disappointing.
Numbersix,
I will address your issue with the negative press. Good stuff that police do (if that does exist) isn't noteworthy. It doesn't sell. What sells? Police in riot gear, police getting military surplus vehicles, police "tasering", shooting, etc. if the news station ran a story about the last time I got out of my car in the projects and jumped rope with some kids it would be twisted in some negative way. I regularly do those things that I believe you were referring to remembering as a child. After all, I'm human.

 

[rockford]

Dhizzy,
Well said and thank you for your efforts!

 

[dottiewarden]

This is a constant worry of mine cuchulain. Where I live there are plenty of ingnorant cops due to lack of proper training. I'm always afraid they are going to trump up dope charges just for carrying a baggy of tobacco and a small briar pipe.
You were lucky.
If any pólice officer can't tell the difference between tobacco and drugs, we all have something to worry about.
As for speeding, most of do it, sometimes we get stopped.

 

[cuchulain]

To the LEO's who stopped by, thanks for piping up. I didn't realized how quickly this thread would go down hill, though I should have known that posting anything concerning law enforcement would've brought out the normal

'jackbooted thugs" reaction.
I'm a former volunteer firefighter, and I've had to interact with police officers in a professional capacity. By and large they're good people with a few bad apples, just like everyone else. I was just severely annoyed that I was searched over a pipe and wanted to grouse about it.
Yaddy and Dhizzy, keep up the good work.

 

[dochudson]

the simple answer is for you folks to slow down. I drive a lot of miles and always cruise at 5 to 7 over the speed limit which puts me cruising about 77 mph. I haven't had a ticket in years. The guys I worked with would regularly get nailed mostly because they weren't paying attention. either on their phones, texting or thought at 75 mph their radar detector was going to save them. none of the had ever been asked to have their car searched. if you have a relative dropping acid or Rx pills in the back seat you should give them a ride directly to the police station.
some of you folks must live in a different world than me..

 

[peckinpahhombre]

That is an interesting story Trailboss. I read a bit more about it online. It sounds like he was clearly guilty of the crime, but you are right, he should never have consented to the search.

 

[edgreen]

I live in New Orleans, so, just for the record (permanent, online), I really think all policeman are honest and would never shoot an unarmed suspect, or after doing so, burn their body in their car and do not continue to this day acting with impunity to the law, rather than enforcing it. I'll probably get on the bad side of the grammar police with so many commas.