What is Your Opinion on the Taste of SG's Products Post Merger?

[Leo]

Title reworded both for capitalization and to make it less demanding.

I think there has been a change of taste in the products produced since the 2015 merger with Hoggarth.

Not only me, but the most of Korean pipe smokers agree. (of Course, South Korea)

I think The taste has become much lighter, especially the dark sweetness. concentrated sweetness

I'm here to ask you for your opinion because I want to know if it's just the idea of pipe smokers in Korea.

I suspect that the changes to the product before and after the merger are all due to the weakening of the presser.
(or without HOT Press)

1) Flakes have become less dense
- Guess physically the presser has weakened, causing the flakes to be less dense and bulky.

In fact, comparing Tin before and after the merger, Flake's volume increased

2) The color of the flakes has become brighter.
- The presser has weakened, which has not produced enough tobacco juice. I suspect that this has not occurred sufficiently in the fermentation and ripening of the tobacco juice.

3) Flakes feel rougher and less humid
- It's not the damp flakes it used to be, but now it feels dry and rough as if it's touching sawdust.

SG, of course, is said to be producing using same methods of production, manpower and machinery even after the merger.
Nevertheless, it is my opinion that the taste has changed since the merger.

What's your opinion?

 

[anotherbob]

never tried them but that makes sense

 

[gervais]

All of my Samuel gawith & hoggarth tobacco has been purchased post 2015, so unfortunately I can't compare. I can say that all of it has been sufficiently moist, however. I will note that all of it is bulk, not tins. Weather or not that plays a roll, I do not know

 

[greeneyes]

I agree with you completely. I think that after the merger someone made it their business to come in and "streamline" the production processes which likely led to what I perceive as a decrease in quality. If you look carefully the flakes are brighter because it's full of stems, the core of which are bright.

I purchased 42 of the 250g boxes of Full Virginia Flake and opened two of them to be certain I didn't have a bad box. When I discovered this I turned around and sold them all again at cost.

I can't say why this might be but I believe that Gawith Hoggarth did not suffer such a deterioration in quality.

 

[Leo]

never tried them but that makes sense

Thank you for your comment!

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

I have smoked GH since the 1980’s and SG since the 1990’s. To me, SG was always a low octane, unleaded, version of the real thing, GH, though many of their blends are very good.

There has always been some variation in both lines. I think it would be prudent of those who wish to cellar deeply to open a box, make sure it meets your standards, and then look for the same date codes.

An even better idea would be, if you want to celllar 20 llbs or so, to stick to MacBarens.

 

[Leo]

I agree with you completely. I think that after the merger someone made it their business to come in and "streamline" the production processes which likely led to what I perceive as a decrease in quality. If you look carefully the flakes are brighter because it's full of stems, the core of which are bright.

I purchased 42 of the 250g boxes of Full Virginia Flake and opened two of them to be certain I didn't have a bad box. When I discovered this I turned around and sold them all again at cost.

I can't say why this might be but I believe that Gawith Hoggarth did not suffer such a deterioration in quality.

decrease the quality, and brighter tobacco, yes! that is what I am talking about. and I agree with you.

I agree with you completely. I think that after the merger someone made it their business to come in and "streamline" the production processes which likely led to what I perceive as a decrease in quality. If you look carefully the flakes are brighter because it's full of stems, the core of which are bright.

I purchased 42 of the 250g boxes of Full Virginia Flake and opened two of them to be certain I didn't have a bad box. When I discovered this I turned around and sold them all again at cost.

I can't say why this might be but I believe that Gawith Hoggarth did not suffer such a deterioration in quality.

I agree with you.
I think some of process of SG has been changed by Hoggarth!

I have wrote the post about this Issue to my blog(Unfortunately, in Korean) Of course with the 'streamline'.

 

[lukasstrifeson]

I have noticed most (if not all) of these differences too.

Personally, I think there are two factors in play here:

1) after the merger, they may be looking to remove some "redundancies" in flavor across the two names. Would it still make sense to have competing branded blends under the same roof? They might be moving towards this. Or they'll return the GH&Co name to be more dedicated to lakelands and Samuel Gawith can be your more commercially marketed line. Who knows?

and 2) I've noticed a subtle shift in the "responsibility" to age tobaccos from the producers to the customer. I remember a tin of virginia tobacco from 2012/13 would be "properly aged" (darker in your observations) where as new virginia blends now are all so young and grassy.

 

[hawky454]

It’s hard to say for me. I started smoking Gawith in 2010 but I haven’t noticed a huge difference other than tasting some Lakeland sauce on FVF from time to time (rare). I have noticed that FVF doesn’t seem to darken as much with age. My 2012 batches are almost black now whereas 2015 and up they don’t seem to darken much at all with age (not too vast of an age difference). I still think they are producing some of the best tobacco in the world, that goes for both SG and GH&Co.

 

[chilllucky]

There are a few articles here and interviews from the radio show that will confirm the details of the merger and what it meant to the facilities, equipment, and materials available.

I don't have time or caffeine enough to link to them at the moment. But my (faulty) memory is that the merger came right after a generational change in ownership (same family) and on the crest of a wave of huge market and regulatory forces that necessarily forced some changes.

Despite smoking a pipe for almost 30 years, I only started trying SG/GH blends recently, so can't speak to 'what was'. Only that 'what is' is good and interesting enough for me.

 

[3rdguy]

If you don't like stems stay away from C&D. I could build a shed with the quantity that come out of a bulk bag.

 

[fireground_piper]

All I can comment about is there's a lot of older commentary about how soaking wet SG blends used to be. My oldest tin is from early 2019, and when I opened it I expected a wet mess but it turned out not to be the case at all and this made me happy.

Even just a significant reduction in water, I'd expect the results of that to touch on all of the complaints mentions. Brighter in color, bulkier, and drier out of the tin. For me, these are all positives generally speaking. My Squadron Leader tins needed absolutely no drying time.

 

[greeneyes]

To my mind the Samuel Gawith flakes have taken a decidedly Danish turn in style: a reduction in matured Virginia depth and an increase in lighter straw and hay notes balanced by a process-imbued sweetness not intrinsic to the Virginia itself.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

As I understand it, the major difference in manufacturing between SG and GH is the timing of application of flavorings, whether they be called casings, toppings, sauces, juju juice, whatever. I am not aware of any fundamental differences in equipment used, though perhaps some equipment from the SG facility didn’t get moved from there to the GH facility. A steam jacket press is a steam jacket press.

AFAIK, both companies bought raw leaf from independent leaf merchants in various parts of the worl and were never dependent on Universal, Alliance One (now Pyxus) or the various subsidiaries of BAT that dominate Africa and are significant players elsewhere. Perhaps not in the same quantities or same varieties, but tobacco available that didn’t necessarily start out in life as designed for cigarette strip.

That means things will vary. STG and MacBarens make good products. They do a great job of assuring a consistent product. I have lots of their products cellared, a few very deeply. By comparison, though still made in a factory ( ancient though it is), SG and GH are artisan products.

Which do you want? GH could sell out to MacBarens or STG, give them the so called recipes, and there would never be any more complaints about changes from time to time or inconsistencies. And we would be assured that the tobacco would taste just the same. Just as we were assured that Danish (STG) Dunhill was the same as Irish (Murray’s) Dunhill was the same as London made Dunhill. “Made to the original recipe”

If SG post merger isn’t acceptable to you, there really isn’t any need to buy it. Particularly 40 boxes at a time.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

To my mind the Samuel Gawith flakes have taken a decidedly Danish turn in style: a reduction in matured Virginia depth and an increase in lighter straw and hay notes balanced by a process-imbued sweetness not intrinsic to the Virginia itself.

I wouldn’t say that is a change, particularly for FVF. Much of SG’s success as an export market tobacco came during a time when Danish style blends dominated. Bob Gregory, who was in charge of SG during much of that time, and I think briefly in charge of the merged companies, did a great job in positioning SG for the export market against larger players by appealing to a traditional U.K. image and housebreaking the taste.

Had I written a review of FVF back in the late 1990’s, I would have emphasized the same points you did.

 

[sablebrush52]

About the only comments I remember reading after the family reunion is that FVF and SJF had picked up some Lakeland in their flavor profiles. I wouldn't know as my stock is pre-merger.
Inconsistency is part of the British style and charm. Batches vary a bit, sometimes a lot. Blame lunch at the pub.

Actually, now that I think about it, I have some post reunion Cabbies, which was pretty good until it got trashed with an overload of crappy dark fired, as has become the current fashion.

 

[mso489]

It sounds like you have what amounts to a focus group assessing the blends. The specificity of the group's observations make me think they are probably correct. If I remember correctly, this was a merger that put back together what had been a family business, so perhaps there was a certain amount of disagreement between the owners, which could have led to some changes when they put the outfit back together. In any case, I don't think your pipe panel there is just imagining things.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

Actually, now that I think about it, I have some post reunion Cabbies, which was pretty good until it got trashed with an overload of crappy dark fired, as has become the current fashion.

I had some Cabbies from one batch a few years back that was just odd. I suppose it could have been dark fired overload, dark fired that was just too strong, whatever. The last I bought tasted fine.

But if I had bought 20 pounds of that particular batch, I might not have ever bothered to try it again.

 

[anotherbob]

I agree with you completely. I think that after the merger someone made it their business to come in and "streamline" the production processes which likely led to what I perceive as a decrease in quality. If you look carefully the flakes are brighter because it's full of stems, the core of which are bright.

I've noticed the full of stems in... Every single brand. It used to be something that almost never happened and now there are at least a few per tin. I think the supply has changed.

 

[mso489]

Leo, interesting observations. Don't disappear into the miasma as some new members do, never to be heard from again.