Wait, I was following you Hawky, having never tried Black Frigate, I thought I understood why you say it's not an English, nor a Balkan. But, to me Billy Budd is a straight up English, one of my favorites. I like it better than Nightcap. So now, I am not sure I am following the line of thought. Latakia means English, Orientals (with or without latakia) means Balkans. Billy Budd is packed out with latakia. So, I am not sure I understand now.