US Customs and FDA are Attacking Pipe Smokers

[warren]

If there are two individuals and one is committing a murder, I'd take the killer as the shoplifter would obviously be the victim of the homicide. Seems simple enough the way you posit the problem.

But I did select the sentence which seemed to be the gist of your post.
The line above appeared to be simply your opinion and while true, didn't raise a question in my mind.

 

[brian64]

If there are two individuals and one is committing a murder, I'd take the killer as the shoplifter would obviously be the victim of the homicide.

Brings to mind the old adage:

When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

 

[warren]

I want a do over! I'd take the shoplifter as all I'd need to do is call for the ME, secure the scene while waiting for the "dicks." I wouldn't even have to put down my coffee and doughnut.

 

[alaskanpiper]

When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.

Couldn't be more true in Anchorage. They take FOREVER. That being said they are working with a staff of 400 and some cops, whereas most US cities the size of ANC have more like 800. They do get paid a buttload compared to most police officers in the lower 48 though, something like 77% above the national average last I heard. Many of them make 6 figures +.

 

[warren]

I kept what would have been our first, APD, patrolman to $100,000 for the year under by a few hundred dollars. I rewarded his with three days without pay for an infraction of the rules. This was waaaaaaaay back in the 1970's.

I'd comment on the response times and such but, it wouldn't be of any more interest to the members than it is with our mayor and assembly members.

 

[alaskanpiper]

I'd comment on the response times and such but, it wouldn't be of any more interest to the members than it is with our mayor and assembly members.

Haha, a fair point. Glad to be living out of Anchorage. I'd much rather live where the bodies are being dumped than where they're being murdered.

 

[brian64]

The "adage" regarding response time was in no way meant to be a criticism of cops.

They cannot be expected to be seconds away. Their job is to investigate crime...not to prevent it.

Self defense is a personal responsibility.

 

[alaskanpiper]

Yeah, I assumed so. I’d be fine with minutes. In Anchorage, however, it’s usually roughly 20 to 30 minutes or more unless someone is getting murdered.

Glad I don’t live there anymore. Although I have insurance within 2 steps in every room just in case. Although as of yet that insurance has only ever been utilized to harvest spruce hens or snowshoe hares that wander into the yard, hahaha. Thankfully.

 

[warren]

No, my oath included protecting as well as enforcing. I took criminal activity in my town and particularly on my beat very seriously. I wanted the bad guys off the street before they stole or harmed.
But, generations of people who grew up on TV cop shows really have no idea as to what good police service means. A crime committed in my area meant I'd failed. But, we took protection much more serious years ago.

Prevention means jacking people up when they are out of place (probable cause), knowing who is prowling your beat.

And, bless your lack of understanding and simplistic solution, the vast majority of people are prey and have no idea how to protect themselves. Owning a firearm and being proficient with it means absolutely nothing when the time comes to use it. No one, absolutely no one, knows for sure if they can take a life until that occasion arises, no matter how much you've convinced yourself otherwise.

My job was to protect the prey. My job, I loved every minute of it, was to prey on the predators.

 

[brian64]

That's all well and good and commendable Warren...and I agree that most people will not be prepared in any way to defend themselves should the need ever arise.

But anyone who assumes that the cops are going to be there to protect them should they ever find themselves in such a situation is most likely going to be disappointed.

The "powers that be" perpetuate the myth to the public that they need not concern themselves with self defense because the police will do that for them.

Good luck.

 

[warren]

The "powers that be" are not responsible for the current state of affairs. The citizens who are involved enough to vote are.

This won't help your position but, cops often arrive at the right time and take down a hostage taker, prevent a rape, and so on. You just won't read/hear about the success because they aren't televised or appear on front pages. I certainly can't make a case that the police are doing a bang up job but, in the main, they are providing the service as best circumstances permit. Ask the woman whose neighbors called the cops when she cried out as she was assaulted. Ask the lost kid. Ask individual pulled out of the crumpled vehicle just before it exploded into a fireball. You could also ask the ... hell too many to mention.

Kudos though for saying "most likely" as opposed an unsupportable "always." You've mellowed a bit.

 

[brian64]

You've mellowed a bit

LOL ... I wish I could say the same for you Warren, but you don't seem to have mellowed at all.

You seem to be taking what I'm saying as a criticism of police in general. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I'm fully aware of everything you're describing. And I did not say that police never prevent crime or that they never protect anyone. I'm saying that it's a physical and logistic impossibility for them to do that all the time. Does that really need to be said? Could anyone possibly think otherwise?

I too could cite countless examples to illustrate what I'm saying, but I don't have the motivation...guess I've mellowed too much.

The "powers that be" are not responsible for the current state of affairs.

This statement of yours is particularly puzzling to me as a response to what I said. What "state of affairs" are you referring to?

All I said regarding the "PTB" is that there is consistent propaganda regarding the subject of self defense.

 

[warren]

The myths they perpetuate. Propaganda or truth depends on one's perspective. The powers are surely going to push their viewpoint/propaganda and not that of the "opposition." The propaganda one believes tends to be that person's truths. Hence, I never believe a politician even if he voices something I believe. If a politician agrees with me I have to reassess my position and the foundation for that position.

 

[brian64]

In the interest of clarity, I'll add this (I never expected such a conversation to be generated by my comment, but it happens):

When I said self defense is a personal responsibility, I did not mean because of some failing of the police or the "system" in general (which is how I think you took it Warren).

I meant it only as a fact of life. I wouldn't want it any other way. I would not want to live in such a controlled environment that it was no longer a personal responsibility.

If/when police do prevent a crime from occurring or protect someone while a crime is happening, that's great...it's a bonus...but they are not legally obligated to be there when such is occurring.

If someone is assaulted, can they sue the police for not having been there to protect them? No, of course not. And they should not be able to. Because it's not the responsibility of the cops to be there to protect you should the need arise. Maybe they'll be there in time...maybe they won't. Matter and gravity create all kinds of limitations on this planet, in addition to all of our human foibles.

 

[warren]

All I'm saying is, protecting yourself is certainly an option but, who protects those who are not physically and/or mentally equipped to do so? And, yes the police are legally obligated to perform their lawful duties. That is why governments are frequently sued for deficient dispatchers, deficient training, and other failures. A couple of major municipalities are overdue for suits challenging them for the failure to enforce the laws their oaths of office require. Police unions will likey be among the first to file such a suit.

Where you live is law enforcement given a free pass from performing their enumerated duties?

 

[brian64]

Where you live is law enforcement given a free pass from performing their enumerated duties?

Once again you somehow seem to take my comments very differently than intended. And to my mind, very differently than stated...but maybe you're just interpreting the words differently. This type of communication is inherently difficult to convey meaning and tone at times.

Yes, of course I understand that police have certain legal responsibilities. The point I was attempting to make (which I think I did make) is that if someone is assaulted, mugged, house broken into, whatever...the police are not legally obligated to be there when that crime is occurring. Are you really saying you disagree with that?

In this age of cell phones, fortunately people are able to call 911 quickly if the need should arise...but in many instances, they may not even have time to do that...and even if they do, police response time is still going to be a matter of many minutes at best. Very often that is not going to be soon enough...and again, that is not in any way the fault of the police.

And regarding people who are physically or mentally incapable of self defense of any kind, do we really need to address every possible thing such as that here? Yes, of course I do realize there are people like that. And it's all the more reason why those who are capable should hopefully at least attempt to come to the aid of those who need it if possible.

I am sincerely amazed that there is any disagreement here on such simple concepts. Seems very strange to me. But it's a strange world.

 

[PaulTheScandinavian]

Meanwhile here in the nanny state'if one defend himself against assault using a firearm he(self defender) sure will be prosecuted for use of excessive force