There is Nothing Unauthentic About American Italian or Chinese Food

[rakovsky]

In terms of Panda Express - I have had much better Orange Chicken - but for whatever reason, the Chinese students I come into contact with all are very curious about this dish - that and Genera Zao's Chicken. Apparently there is nothing like it in China.

If someone wanted to make the argument that a dish was not authentic, one would argue that certain dishes like General Zhao's were nothing like dishes in China. I hear that it's like Sesame Chicken and like General Tso's Chicken, and that these dishes along with Chop Suey aren't a normal part of food in China but are basically part of American dishes that Chinese or Chinese-heritage people made in the US. I heard that General Tso's Chicken is part of Taiwanese food since a chef invented it in the 1950's, but am not sure how common it is there. Supposedly this chef later brought the dish to NYC in the 1970's.

I'm no specialist, and Chinese cuisine is varied in China with so many regions, that I can't really answer that. I don't know how much of Chinese-American dishes match dishes in China, and how close the resemblance is.

Imagine that I opened a "fajita" shop in Ukraine and made my fajitas with parsley, pita shells, Italian marinara, and Italian meatball beef instead of normal fajita ingredients. Imagine that it caught on in Ukraine but not back in the Americas. This would seem like a good analogy of the problem. Someone could argue over whether my product was authentic Tex-Mex or not.

 

[rakovsky]

@telescopes you make a good point, and I like that you have had your own travelling experiences.

When I think of 'authentic' in relation to the taste of ethnic food, I am actually referring to 'specific' rather than 'authentic'.

When I was on a plane leaving China, after living there most of the year in 2003 I started crying...because I realised it was lunchtime and I might never have my favourite noodle soup again! I have found a restaurant here in New Zealand that does food from Henan province, and their broth and noodle is very nostalgic for me, and very tasty...but still not EXACTLY what I remember. There will be some phsycology involved I imagine.

I got on a plane this time last year to fly to Canada (where I have lived on and off) for a white christmas, and when I took a swig of the complimentary bottled water from air canada I gagged...because it tasted like the horrible Canadian water that it was. My first coffee was horrible too. A few days into my trip I had normalised the specific water, dairy, bread etc tastes of Canada again, and I could enjoy them as 'specific' tastes of Canada.

Morton,

FWIW, I lived in the former USSR in the 2000's and had East Slavic food both here in the US and there, and found that although it's generally not common for the US, it's mostly "authentic." So when they make borscht or beef dumplings or "pigeons"/cabbage-rolls, it tends to be authentic and close enough in either place. Certainly in regards to water taste you are going to get differences depending on the country, but I wouldn't count that far toward authentic preparation.

One nuance is that in Europe they typically use alkaline sugar beets as their source for sugar and we use acidic sugar cane in the US. So I made apple cider wine and gave some to a Polish man at a Polish festival in the US, and he replied that it was good, but that using sugar beet sugar would be better. So technically either method would be using "sugar" and match a recipe that called for sugar, but using sugar beet sugar would be a more authentic taste for a Polish sugar-using product.

One thing I noticed was better/more authentic in the former USSR was their "julienne". From French cuisine they picked up a fondu mix where they bake soft cheese and mushrooms or ham in a little metal pot. The former USSR version is soft and gooey like fondu, whereas the version I had in the US is more stringey, the cheese sticks together more like cheese in a grilled cheese sandwich.

 

[mawnansmiff]

She was probably British in her way of thinking about food.

Most likely she was familiar with the fork and how useful it is at picking up bits of meat

Jay.

 

[LOREN]

I'm not sure what "authentic" means. Does it mean the "exact" same ingredients prepared in the "exact" same way as the country or region of origin?

 

[OzPiper]

I’m a 3rd generation Chinese born in Malaysia, and resident in Australia since 1969.
And while I have been to Hong Kong, I have never been to China.
So I can‘t comment on the authenticity of the Chinese food found in Australia.

The Labour Government under the Hon. Gough Whitlam liberalised immigration to Australia in the mid-‘70’s. Resulting to a welcome influx of migrants from all corners of the globe.
Prior to that was the era of The White Australia Policy.
Chinese immigration soared exponentially subsequent to the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989
All of which has had a hugely positive effect on the quality of cuisine in Australia.

All I can say is I am more than satisfied with the diverse cuisine available in Australia now, compared to my first years in Oz.
Authentic or not, I’m in a happy place

 

[sablebrush52]

I'm not sure what "authentic" means. Does it mean the "exact" same ingredients prepared in the "exact" same way as the country or region of origin?

Nope. There’s no one way to prepare any dish, but there is a standard of ingredients and processes that represent a recognizable style. These may vary from region to region, incorporating ingredients that reflect the practices of that region.

 

[OzPiper]

Nope. There’s no one way to prepare any dish, but there is a standard of ingredients and processes that represent a recognizable style. These may vary from region to region, incorporating ingredients that reflect the practices of that region.

Yup.
Not just region to region, but town/village, restaurant and households.

Most cooks or chefs will add their own embellishments to the basic recipe.

And not least, the seasonality of ingredients

 

[sablebrush52]

Yup.
Not just region to region, but town/village, restaurant and households.

Most cooks or chefs will add their own embellishments to the basic recipe.

And not least, the seasonality of ingredients

You get that right side of the village main street thing versus left side of the village main street thing at some restaurants in the San Gabriel Valley.

 

[JackOrion]

Well the premise of the op seems to be based on restaurants. Ethnic food is one of the if not the oldest folk forms we have. Recipes and preparation techniques that have been handed down from generation to generation. Not every family has this tradition, I’d think less so than more. As people rely more on food prep outside of the home these traditions fade.
Restaurants are a business. It’s very difficult to find one that’s family run let alone one that produces a menu of generational recipes. Just the logistics of daily production would be a daunting task to sustain a business.
The question of what’s authentic is better answered in the home of a long standing family with strong lineage to a particular region. Authentic tradition happens in the home not a restaurant.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

Well the premise of the op seems to be based on restaurants. Ethnic food is one of the if not the oldest folk forms we have. Recipes and preparation techniques that have been handed down from generation to generation. Not every family has this tradition, I’d think less so than more. As people rely more on food prep outside of the home these traditions fade.
Restaurants are a business. It’s very difficult to find one that’s family run let alone one that produces a menu of generational recipes. Just the logistics of daily production would be a daunting task to sustain a business.
The question of what’s authentic is better answered in the home of a long standing family with strong lineage to a particular region. Authentic tradition happens in the home not a restaurant.

I agree with much of what you wrote. But, even with family recipes, things evolve. I learned cooking by spending time with my father when he prepared the aforementioned Sunday meals when we grew up (I was the only one who learned from him among my brothers). Most of the proportions of ingredients was done by eye and to taste. While I have been pretty faithful to my father’s recipes when I have prepared banquet style, ten course dinners for twenty people (either gatherings in honour of my father using his recipes for family and friends, or Chinese New Year celebrations for family and friends), there has been deviation in some of the ingredients or whole additions to the menu. I would still consider the majority of what I prepare to be the dishes my father made and “authentic.” To some degree, I’m relying on my possibly faulty memory—but the confirmation of my brothers agreeing that what I cooked is like what my father made has told me that my memory isn’t too bad (perhaps, there is something to the saying, ”The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”) But, even with tradition, evolution can sometimes come into play; I know that the sauce I make when preparing pepper steak is not exactly what my father would have prepared, but I prefer mine.

 

[telescopes]

I agree with much of what you wrote. But, even with family recipes, things evolve. I learned cooking by spending time with my father when he prepared the aforementioned Sunday meals when we grew up (I was the only one who learned from him among my brothers). Most of the proportions of ingredients was done by eye and to taste. While I have been pretty faithful to my father’s recipes when I have prepared banquet style, ten course dinners for twenty people (either gatherings in honour of my father using his recipes for family and friends, or Chinese New Year celebrations for family and friends), there has been deviation in some of the ingredients or whole additions to the menu. I would still consider the majority of what I prepare to be the dishes my father made and “authentic.” To some degree, I’m relying on my possibly faulty memory—but the confirmation of my brothers agreeing that what I cooked is like what my father made has told me that my memory isn’t too bad (perhaps, there is something to the saying, ”The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”) But, even with tradition, evolution can sometimes come into play; I know that the sauce I make when preparing pepper steak is not exactly what my father would have prepared, but I prefer mine.

Exactly - that is my premise: authenticity can be more than using the exact ingredients or recipes. Evolutionary changes can be applied in a way that is in keeping with the whole.

 

[FLDRD]

Also, bistecca fiorentina is best enjoyed in Florence Italy.

One of my best all time experiences. Just don't ask me which restaurant it was, way too long ago. But a great time.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

Exactly - that is my premise: authenticity can be more than using the exact ingredients or recipes. Evolutionary changes can be applied in a way that is in keeping with the whole.

Maybe two different things are being covered here, but to my mind, most of what is thought of as Chinese food in America (the stereotypical stuff you order by circling a number on a paper takeout menu) is inauthentic and bears little resemblance to what many Chinese-American families (with some direct roots to the home country) prepare at home.

 

[pappymac]

Growing up in Southeast Texas, the best Mexican food I ever had was by some family friends who happened to be from Mexico. Gloria would put out a veritable feast of Mexican food two or three times a year (never on May 5th). We were also educated to the fact that her dishes were from the eastern regions of Mexico and not (her words) "the bland, tasteless dishes from the western side of Mexico." Years later when I visited the area around Mazatlan, I learned that the cuisine on the western side of Mexico was different but not bland or tasteless.

I haven't eaten at any of the big Chinese food chains in a very long time. The restaurants I go to are owned and operated by Chinese families and all the cooks are members of the family. I wouldn't dare insult them by saying their Chinese menu items are not authentic.

 

[JackOrion]

I agree with much of what you wrote. But, even with family recipes, things evolve. I learned cooking by spending time with my father when he prepared the aforementioned Sunday meals when we grew up (I was the only one who learned from him among my brothers). Most of the proportions of ingredients was done by eye and to taste. While I have been pretty faithful to my father’s recipes when I have prepared banquet style, ten course dinners for twenty people (either gatherings in honour of my father using his recipes for family and friends, or Chinese New Year celebrations for family and friends), there has been deviation in some of the ingredients or whole additions to the menu. I would still consider the majority of what I prepare to be the dishes my father made and “authentic.” To some degree, I’m relying on my possibly faulty memory—but the confirmation of my brothers agreeing that what I cooked is like what my father made has told me that my memory isn’t too bad (perhaps, there is something to the saying, ”The proof of the pudding is in the eating.”) But, even with tradition, evolution can sometimes come into play; I know that the sauce I make when preparing pepper steak is not exactly what my father would have prepared, but I prefer mine.

That’s right, that’s the folk tradition. Oral history handed down.

 

[cshubhra]

I have possibly tasted authentic food from only America and India.

Authentic American food is really good in America.

On the other hand, even the best Indian restaurants in USA are often average (Or below). The best Indian food in America is often found at home.

In terms of Chinese, never tasted authentic but I like the Sichuan or Hunan styles, over typical Chinese fare you get at every street corner.

Not tasted authentic Mexican but a Taco is ruined when Lettuce or American cheese is added.

 

[telescopes]

Some very remarkable and insightful comments so far.

I think the most meaningless word to describe food when describing food is "authentic". The word is absolutely meaningless because it is subjective to the context of the person using it. A great tasting taco, curry, or carbonara is always worth the time if it is great tasting. A lousy tasting taco, curry, or carbonara is never worth the time - no matter where it is bought or how authentic the ingredients, recipe, and method are. When someone says that a certain restaurant doesn't serve "authentic" Mexican food, I am uncertain what the Hell that means. Tex Mex is Tex Mex. Chinese Fusion is Chinese Fusion. Chinese American is Chinese American. Hell, even Taco Bell is a fast food fusion of beans, rice, and hamburger meat. Each of those genres are authentic genres. New Mexican cuisine is no less an authentic genre and no one confuses it with Mexican Food - and yet, how foolish it would be to do so. That said, I maintain my premise - you can find great tasting foods of most any genre here in America - and when they deviate, judge the foods on how well they taste given the deviation. The foods, as someone pointed out earlier, of all of the above genres would look very different if we were to step back in time 100 years ago. Foods change. Wha anyone person refers to as authentic is a contextual bias based on their own experiences - experiences that mean little to the context of anyone else.

Again, I do live in area where I am spoiled by access to great tasing foods representative from all over the world.

 

[FLDRD]

Taco Bell "meat" is far less than 50% actual meat.

 

[telescopes]

Taco Bell "meat" is far less than 50% actual meat.

Yes, but it is a creation. Without it you don’t have a Taco Bell taco. The dorito shell taco, the bean and cheese burrito, all these things at Taco Bell are in their own right brilliant creations - one might argue against them but millions of others recognize them as brilliant. No, they are in NO WAY representative of Mexican food as found in Mexico. But that is a false measuring stick by which to discuss the foods found at Taco Bell. The inverse could be said that Mexican food is NOT authentic Taco Bell food.

 

[lazar]

What's this American obsession to be "better" than every other country at everything? Sure, there are great restaurants of every ethnicity in the US, but claiming Americans always improve and make everything better than the country of origin is ridiculous. Especially when taste is subjective. The best Indian food I've ever had was in India. The best Mexican food I've ever had was in Mexico. The pizza I every had was in Naples.... It doesn't mean they objectively "the best."