There is Nothing Unauthentic About American Italian or Chinese Food

[cosmicfolklore]

I was slow stewing some neckbones and Colarados in the crockpot, and realized I didn’t have tortillas. So, I was in line at the grocers buying my 4” soft corn tortillas, and the checkout lady was snarling her nose at me, “what you gonna put on those tiny things?”
“You don’t put anything ON them, you use them to get the meat in your mouth.”
She just couldn’t comprehend the concept of a family reaching in with one to grab some meat out of the pot to eat it, with the taco sopping up the stew liquor. She was probably British in her way of thinking about food.

 

[beefeater33]

Living in Palm Springs and the Coachella Valley

And you've got Shield's Date Farm................ That was a family tradition every time we visited when the kids were little. Those date shakes are divine.........
Sorry, went off topic a bit.

 

[telescopes]

@cosmicfolklore you would absolutely love the truly joyous quality of Mexican food we have here in the Valley as well as San Diego. The hand made tortillas made by old women using nothing more that a Metate y Mano and their hands is incredible. The taste of the corn, freshly made from crushed corn after being soaked in lye is too only be experienced once - and then everything in terms of a tortilla is ruined. The food choices - and cocktail sophistication I have access to within walking distance is perhaps the only reason I maintain a home in Palm Desert. From French restaurants, Thai, Peruvian, German, and even Irish, we are spoiled. Our tiki bars are bastions of cocktail paradises. Homemade Syrups, bitters, and fresh fruits are plentiful and used to their full advantage. I forget that our desert is an island oasis of culinary excellence.

 

[telescopes]

And you've got Shield's Date Farm................ That was a family tradition every time we visited when the kids were little. Those date shakes are divine.........
Sorry, went off topic a bit.

Not at all. The Date Shake is a love it or hate treat. I love it. And the date farm has only improved. Our date selection is a well kept secret. Medjoles anyone?

 

[Duke of Erinmore]

I'm from Germany, so I am basically two borders away from Italy, and "German Italian" food is mostly made by first generation Italian immigrants and their families (apart from cheap takeaway pizza places which are mostly run by Turks). And say what? The Italian restaurants here adapt to the German taste. A typical example: Germans cook carbonara sauce with cream, which is unheard of in Italy. When you go to an Italian place, you hardly find "authentic" carbonara sauce without cream. They just cook what their customers prefer.

Fun fact: Same goes for American cuisine. When you order a medium steak in Germany, you might be disappointed because German "medium" is like "well done" in the US.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

@cosmicfolklore you would absolutely love the truly joyous quality of Mexican food we have here in the Valley as well as San Diego. The hand made tortillas made by old women using nothing more that a Metate y Mano and their hands is incredible. The taste of the corn, freshly made from crushed corn after being soaked in lye is too only be experienced once - and then everything in terms of a tortilla is ruined. The food choices - and cocktail sophistication I have access to within walking distance is perhaps the only reason I maintain a home in Palm Desert. From French restaurants, Thai, Peruvian, German, and even Irish, we are spoiled. Our tiki bars are bastions of cocktail paradises. Homemade Syrups, bitters, and fresh fruits are plentiful and used to their full advantage. I forget that our desert is an island oasis of culinary excellence.

Sounds great. We have a huge Guatemalan community in Birmingham with some really good food. The restaurants are little more than cinderblock boxes full of old chairs and tables, but the food is what you go there for.

 

[anotherbob]

Vibing off a comment by @anotherbob, the argument too often made by food snobs about America's versions of Mexican, Italian, or Chinese foods that these foods are somehow unauthentic is nuts. Even more nuts is that the versions of these foods found in America are somehow less tasty is even more nuts.

Good recipes and well made meals are delicious - in any country. The idea that somehow Americans are unable to recreate ethnic dishes is not just snobby, but disingenuous. Of course we can make and do make great ethnic dishes that can and do hold their own. To top it off, we often make them better. Case in point. The Burrito, Fajitas, taco, Chimichangas, and nachos are true American inventions (Nachos is barely Mexican, but the case can be made for it as being so). American pizza runs circles around anything I've had in Italy (Yeh, you can find good pizza in Italy) let alone many of our pasta dishes can and do taste better - (not always - but you can find places that do it superbly so). Having traveled extensively through China and Southeast Asia, I find our Chinese food can often out pace what most people will find in China. Our International student from Xian who lives with us is absolutely certain that Panda Express is proof there is a Heaven.

I always make a point to eat locally when traveling. It is soooo hit or miss. I've had Guinea Pig in Cuzco and Equador and I've had it here in a Peruvian restaurant in Palm Springs. I'll take the version here in Palm Springs any day.

America has some poor examples of ethnic restaurants. But we also have many good examples as well. But more to the point, the immigrants who came here found they were FREE to experiment and in many cases improve wildly upon the foods from their home countries. Orange Chicken, New York Pizza, and a plate of Fajitas are just a few examples of foods that are not just authentic, but elevate the dishes to the next level. A well-made Chimichanga in Tucson comes to mind. Yes, China, Italy, and Mexico all have dishes that are uniquely their own and typically can only be found in their home countries. But if those dishes are ever imported to America, you can be sure they will grow, develop, and improve.

yeah. And like you said too. Cross cultural pollination has happened over and over including with dishes people think of as pure in some way. When the fact is they got it from the greeks or the Italians in the first place (as two examples.)
I find if funny too because always the original is a reflection on what was available to that at the time and using a combination of experimenting and know how to make that stuff first palatable then awesome and enjoyable. Which is the same thing that happens when they get over here.
Sure if you want to be academic and want to be as much of an explorer as possible, then seek out the grand daddy of the dish here with the same name. But if it's about somehow being more genuine and authentic you already lost the plot. Oh and what the pure minded nimrods forget is those dishes have changed over time in their supposed place of origin (like I said they're usually wrong about it anyways) including taking inspiration from the American or British or whatever version of it. The pizza you can get in Italy isn't t he same one they made ten years ago and that's not what they made 100 years ago. And so on until we aren't sure what kind of stuff they certainly ate because nations didn't even exist yet and everyone was being all a bunch of hippies living off of nature but being bad at the hippie thing cause they liked throwing spears at each other too.

 

[LeafErikson]

The melting pot of cultures in the US created delicious confluences of culinary innovations and marriages that otherwise would never have been. It’s reflected the world over as people migrate, open businesses, ingratiate and assimilate themselves into new cultures, and bring a piece of home into the culinary conversation. An integral part of the human experience, indeed.

 

[anotherbob]

But, yes…. If you find an authentic Mexican or Chinese restaurants, then you’ve found something special. But, that's not the norm here.

Oh Gosh one of my favorite types of reviews are people that take something from a restaurant from a town like mine and the review basically is we don't have the same thing that London, New York, or another cosmopolitan city does. Like they just want to brag about how well traveled they are. Though the one Japanese place we have is pretty darn close and we have a Mexican place that's like 50/50 in many ways. I knew I ordered something Authentic when the waiter told everyone else to enjoy their meal and gave me props on the snow queen in Spanish. (yeah I had to look it up).

 

[anotherbob]

And you've got Shield's Date Farm................ That was a family tradition every time we visited when the kids were little. Those date shakes are divine.........
Sorry, went off topic a bit.

never had those specific ones but seriously how the hell does a date shake taste as incredible as it does. It's as confusing as trying to explain to someone how good Dorian fruit is. Like yes it does taste like corpse, friend onions, dirty gym socks that got stuck in a sewer pipe, but if all of that was really freaking tasty.

 

[anotherbob]

on a similar thread. I love when people correct your American pronunciation of a word with the authentic version. I always want to say and sometimes do. I am speaking English and using a borrowed word. Good example the town is pronounced Lah Tock EEE Ah the tobacco named in tribute is lat a key ah. Both are correct pronunciations because they're in different languages. That be like getting mad at my South American friend for calling me Boberto.

 

[anotherbob]

Yeh, authentic, I don’t mean some sense of consistency. Hell, 90% of the world’s families don’t cook with a recipes, nut cook with a sense of aesthetic for taste.

Most tacos I’ve had in the lower Americas were about the way you eat a stewed meat. Just grab it out of the dish with a tortilla and eat.

And yes, the classic twelve Chinese dishes, do have the basic aesthetic of China, but you’ll find so much more variety there.

I’m just expounding upon what I think @anotherbob might have meant. Quality as a variant, rather than a level of how it pleases us.

I’m not saying your wrong either. Both of you are coming from different perspectives in what you mean to convey.

It's always nice when someone proves that you got your point across.

 

[LotusEater]

This is an interesting subject. For me it comes down to what is meant by authentic/inauthentic. Panda Express is a fine and I would argue authentic example of an American fast food take on Chinese cuisine. I love it but I’m gonna go to China town for dim sum if I want a more authentic experience. Same goes for Mexican - the local gourmet taco truck serves fabulous Americanized delights that I much prefer to some authentic Mexican cuisine but if I want mole I’m going to search out a more authentically Mexican establishment. I guess my point is that American ethnic cuisine is good and authentic in its own right it’s just not usually a reflection of what you might find in the country of origin- it is its own thing.

 

[TheIronMonkey]

My father was from Kwantung (now known as Guangdong) and spoke the Toisan dialect. The region and dialect is thought of as the country bumpkin part of Canton. Apart from fried rice (with egg, ham, peas, onions, etc.), the majority of dishes my father prepared for us on Sunday nights growing up bore very little resemblance to the usual suspects found on the menus of what most people think of as Chinese-American takeout restaurants; growing up, these kinds of takeout dishes seemed inauthentic to my brothers and me. There are popular spots in Chinatown in Manhattan that are frequented by American tourists that serve the stereotypical dishes, but when you see the food prepared for the workers, it is usually off-menu. My advice to friends visiting Chinatown and wanting food that was more “authentic” was to look for a restaurant filled with only Chinese customers; they would more likely be able to get dishes that weren’t limited to the like of General Tso’s Chicken.

In the last ten or fifteen years, there has been an influx of Fukienese in New York. I remember being very excited to discover a little strip of Fukien restaurants that were so new that their menus weren’t even in English. My girlfriend at the time and I had to order by pointing or rely on pot luck (I don’t speak or read Chinese fluently). It was exciting to experience dishes with new sauces and preparation than I was used to having.

Presently, there are a lot more restaurants in New York that have Chinese food that doesn’t fall into the Chinese takeout stereotype, but the latter prevail in the small boroughs of Pennsylvania, and I suspect much of America.

 

[karam]

Immigrants always say "it's better back home", and that includes American immigrants.

 

[The Libertine]

I prefer home cooked meals. I rarely go out so I tend to make a lot of meals from France. Coq au vin is a favorite of mine and so is steak (cooked bleu) frites.

 

[telescopes]

Immigrants always say "it's better back home", and that includes American immigrants.

Hmmm. All the immigrants I meet here in the desert as well as our International students DO NOT want to go back home - There’s talk people say and then there‘s talk people do.

 

[LotusEater]

My father was from Kwantung (now known as Guangdong) and spoke the Toisan dialect. The region and dialect is thought of as the country bumpkin part of Canton. Apart from fried rice (with egg, ham, peas, onions, etc.), the majority of dishes my father prepared for us on Sunday nights growing up bore very little resemblance to the usual suspects found on the menus of what most people think of as Chinese-American takeout restaurants; growing up, these kinds of takeout dishes seemed inauthentic to my brothers and me. There are popular spots in Chinatown in Manhattan that are frequented by American tourists that serve the stereotypical dishes, but when you see the food prepared for the workers, it is usually off-menu. My advice to friends visiting Chinatown and wanting food that was more “authentic” was to look for a restaurant filled with only Chinese customers; they would more likely be able to get dishes that weren’t limited to the like of General Tso’s Chicken.

In the last ten or fifteen years, there has been an influx of Fukienese in New York. I remember being very excited to discover a little strip of Fukien restaurants that were so new that their menus weren’t even in English. My girlfriend at the time and I had to order by pointing or rely on pot luck (I don’t speak or read Chinese fluently). It was exciting to experience dishes with new sauces and preparation than I was used to having.

Presently, there are a lot more restaurants in New York that have Chinese food that doesn’t fall into the Chinese takeout stereotype, but the latter prevail in the small boroughs of Pennsylvania, and I suspect much of America.

The best, most “authentic” Chinese cuisine I have experienced was from restaurants in Vancouver that I frequented with Chinese Canadian friends (often quite late in the evening during the Christmas season or on the weekend after a late night out.) There was generally no English menus available and very few photos so I’m not even sure what many of the dishes were. The food was always good, often interesting (to my palate) and certainly nothing like the take out food most Americans or Canadians equate with “Chinese Food”.

 

[sablebrush52]

This is an interesting subject. For me it comes down to what is meant by authentic/inauthentic. Panda Express is a fine and I would argue authentic example of an American fast food take on Chinese cuisine. I love it but I’m gonna go to China town for dim sum if I want a more authentic experience. Same goes for Mexican - the local gourmet taco truck serves fabulous Americanized delights that I much prefer to some authentic Mexican cuisine but if I want mole I’m going to search out a more authentically Mexican establishment. I guess my point is that American ethnic cuisine is good and authentic in its own right it’s just not usually a reflection of what you might find in the country of origin- it is its own thing.

Authentic “Americanized” cuisine is a perfectly valid category. It reminds me of the “Mexican” food I had when I was working on a show in North Carolina. It was on par with Eisenhower era frozen food.

 

[karam]

Hmmm. All the immigrants I meet here in the desert as well as our International students DO NOT want to go back home - There’s talk people say and then there‘s talk people do.

I was referring to food, other than that I agree.

Another aspect is immigrants often having a chip on their shoulder stemming from a real or imaginary idea that the place they left to become immigrants is inferior to where they currently live. I mean, in my case I know the aspects where Switzerland/UK is better than Greece, that's why I am not in Greece since 2000. Food is not one of them, though. In all my travels, and having eaten in many places in the world there's nothing quite hitting the mark for me like Greek food.

That said, I do want to go back to Greece eventually, and will do it when I have enough to build a huge invisible wall of money around me so that what made me leave can no longer touch me.

Anecdote: when I lived in the UK there was a supposedly famous Chinese restaurant in our town, however Chinese friends and colleagues said "Nah, there's just Caucasians there, can't be good". Setting aside that if I, a "Caucasian" said the same of a non-Chinese place I'd be strung up for racism, the place they all favoured was a dingy, filthy, noodle bar blasting shitty music, plates arrived in 30 seconds with huge piles of greasy noodles. They were greasy AF and delicious. My Chinese friends said that that noodle bar was the only authentic Chinese place in miles. Generally "go where the locals go" always works, as does "don't go where they have pictures of the food on the menu".

Again, through many travels and knowing many people from many places I've found that when food is done outside its country of origin it's heavily sanitized (dirt adds to the flavour, too), and many of the actual authentic tastes are either toned down or eliminated altogether.

French food in France? Prepare for an assault of earthiness. Spanish in Spain? OIL. Enough oil to sink Exxon Valdez again, and that's a Greek saying this! Italian in Italy? Ok, I pass, Italian in Italy was god-tier good food. Japanese in Japan? Greasy and crowded and delicious and in a cloud of cigarette smoke so thick your eyes watered. Indian made by Indians? Ketchup on the table next to the home-made Besan Cheela (because according to my hosts "when McDonald's came to India they gave away ketchup for free, and we're such cheapskates that we used to take the ketchup sachets home by the pocketful, so it made it into our daily routine").

Generally I am not a snob, if I like the food I'm eating I'm happy and couldn't care less if it's authentic or not, people who whine about "authenticity" are basically trying to cover a hole somewhere else in my opinion.