The Theory Behind Aging Tobaccco

[misterlowercase]

I tend to agree with Simenon on this.
Somewhat related is this experiment, done back when some folks were into vacuum sealing their tobacco. Some interesting results:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070807071030/http://agingfaq.nocturne.org/articles/tsmith-2001-07-25.txt
...and a couple of more quotes



I have observed, however, that once the tin is opened, the tobaccos within these ancient tins seems to fall apart rather quickly, losing their essence and power as the days go by. They need to be smoked quickly, as just as aged Bordeaux and Burgundy fall apart quickly after opening the bottle. I once was fortunate enough to attend a wine tasting that included an 1875 Chateau Mouton Rothschild. The flavor was there at first but was pretty much "gone" after 15 minutes. Old Virginias parallel old wines, but fortunately they last a lot longer after being exposed to air.

Fred Hanna, 2004-11-05
When I open an old tin, I tend to want to smoke it fairly quickly, as I think there is some degradation of an aged tobacco that begins as soon as the seal is broken. To me, the finest bowl from an old tin is the first. If I'm not going to smoke it fairly quickly, I'll transfer the entire tin to a bail top jar, or bag the contents, and put it in a mason jar. This will keep the tobacco in good shape for quite a while. But, still, every time that lid is off, some of the bloom comes off the rose.

GL Pease, 2005-08-20

 

[homeatsea]

This is all incredibly interesting, though it sure makes the jarring process less stressful for a newbie knowing now that if I get the inclination to try something I've sealed away a touch early that I'm not bound by "aging law" to fight off my inclination and leave it sit there for 5 years untouched.

 

[romeowood]

The easy and obvious answer to the whole debate, of course, is to buy enough that you won't be disturbing the entire stock of Tobacco X when you want to sample some at periodic intervals.

 

[romeowood]

All of which leads me back to my theory: Shouldn't it be possible, as I suggested above, to artificially induce the characteristics of age into fairly fresh tobacco?

Well, no...yes, and no. But mostly no.

There are some fascinating experiments going on right now with quantum computing and even quantum refrigerators, as well as possible extra-dimensional alteration of the time-space continuum. But we haven't been able to truly alter time yet, and that's most likely for the better. So no, the passage of time is as yet a universal chronological constant in our perception, and the perception of the microbes which enact their symphony of life and death in our tobaccos.
The bottom line is that change is small, incremental, and extended over a period of years. Add to that that our *perception* of quality adheres to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, in that it is most certainly influenced by knowing that something has sat in a solitude of years before filling our bowl, and you have something which cannot be replicated without patience. Fortunately for us, our hobby aims to teach us this quality.
However, if you do find a way to tinker with the 8th dimension, say hello to Buckaroo Banzai for me. ::

 

[cigrmaster]

Ok, I think I am getting a clearer picture of how pipe tobacco ages. Vacuum sealed tins age differently than bulk tobacco in jars. Once a tin is opened if you re jar it then you will get a different type of aging going on than the original one. If you open a jar of bulk grab some out and then shut it back up it should age pretty much as it did before? Pipe tobacco never stops aging really, it just does it differently. Am I comprehending this correctly?
I swear you need a degree in biology to figure this stuff out.

 

[portascat]

I have aged 5 years, and not in a mellow way, reading all of this.

 

[romeowood]

Is it possible to artificially induce most, or even some, of the characteristics of aged tobaccos using scientific methods to provide a far more favorable environment and increase the growth rate of whatever micro-organisms are responsible for the aging process that occurs in the tobacco itself, reducing the time to a fraction of the 2 to 5 years most say is when the most marked differences occur.

No.

 

[misterlowercase]

I don't think there is a substitute for good old-fashioned aging, although technology does have a habit of overcoming the impossible, so who knows?
There are some folks who do the "tin baking" or "home stoving" technique and it can take the edge off of fresh tobacco, and there has been a debate about whether this is "accelerated aging" or not...
...here's a thread from a couple of years ago:

http://pipesmagazine.com/forums/topic/tin-baking
GLPease has also written about it:

A few have written questions to the effect of: I’ve read a lot lately about “tin baking,” the cooking of tobaccos in the tin. I’m curious about it. What’s the story?
Stoving in the tin is certainly nothing new. I first learned the technique when I spent all my free time at Drucquers in the early 1980s. We had an electric pizza oven specifically for the task, and several of the blends were treated this way. It’s also a process I’ve used with several of my own blends since 1998, including some that are Latakia-rich. It certainly does interesting things to the finished product.
Some consider it an “accelerated aging,” but it’s not that. What it is is a rapid integration of the volatiles—a more complete and quicker “marrying” of the components. It can dramatically change the overall balance of a blend, sometimes for the better, sometimes, not so much. It will, in any event, alter the direction the blend will take in future aging, so beware if you plan on playing with tobacco you plan to continue aging.
But, it’s one of those things that’s fun to experiment with, and a few swear by their results. I recommend proceeding with caution, perhaps jarring some small quantities and toasting them for various lengths of time to see what you get. With virginias, I find that letting them sit, sealed, for a couple weeks after any heat is applied is definitely beneficial, as they can sometimes take on an unpleasant aroma and taste for a while when freshly cooked. And, be sure not to let the temperatures get much above 190-200˚F, or you may end up with a smelly mess to clean up when the container bursts, spraying the oven with an shower of tobacco.
...more here:

http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/ask-g-l-pease/ask-g-l-pease-september-2011/

Tins of Gallaher's Rich Dark Honeydew about to be vacuum sealed at the Lisnafillan factory, 1956.

 

[topd]

The things that came to mind while reading all these posts:

I have tins that have been setting as long as 24 years, unopened.

Have jars that were in tins 12 years or longer that I've opened and jarred, and are reopened frequently....

I also have some bulk that's been in jars about as long that are opened once in a while...

There are differing views on what exactly is going on inside....

But I really don't think about it much or care as it's all good.
I've never had a good tobacco go bad.

 

[cynyr]

Mike's theory makes sense to me.
IF aging is caused by microbes, and;
IF said microbes eat carbon dioxide, and;
IF an abundance of CO2 causes the little devils to live and breed faster,
THEN, more generations of microbes acting on the tobacco would make those changes happen sooner.
But I'm not a microbiologist, and science doesn't always follow common sense.

 

[cigrmaster]

roth,

Also, from my own experience aging tobacco myself -- this is going back decades, when I used much larger canning jars. I was disappointed that the aged tobacco in the large quart jar, opened many years later, though wonderful when opened, actually "flattened out" within a few weeks or so -- it didn't spoil and wasn't "bad," certainly smokable, but the flavors had markedly diminished into something considerably less impressive.
Greg nailed it, "It's like a fine wine - cellar it for a long time, but drink it fairly quickly."
Hence, as I noted above my main reason for using the smaller canning jars.

What type of tobacco are you referring to when you are discussing the larger containers, was it va or vaper flakes? Also if I use my experience with aged cigars, once a cigar has been aged it does not need to be smoked quickly because once aged it does not go backwards.

 

[homeatsea]

cigrmaster, the degree in biology doesn't help in figuring all this out :crying:.
And the more I read the more I subscribe to TopD's view on it. Don't think too much on it, whatever you enjoy, enjoy. I'd risk to say that no two tobacco's will be the same, no matter if they're the "exact" same tobacco stored in the "exact" same way.

 

[spartan]

Is it possible to artificially induce most, or even some, of the characteristics of aged tobaccos using scientific methods to provide a far more favorable environment and increase the growth rate of whatever micro-organisms are responsible for the aging process that occurs in the tobacco itself, reducing the time to a fraction of the 2 to 5 years most say is when the most marked differences occur?

I don't know about reducing the time in which tobacco ages, but I think I heard Brian Levine say something on one of the Radio/Podcasts about leaving a small sample out in the sun for a bit and that will give you an idea of how the blend will age?
Anyone remember hearing that and care to elaborate?

 

[dragonslayer]

Well it looks like a reply has a limit... So new thread.

 

[dragonslayer]

Well I don’t consider my theory a dog pile or foolish. Copying and pasting a bunch of quotes from one person who gained his knowledge from those before him and continues to experiment as I have.
When I started down the road of mass storage I took it as serious as with my cigars. When I make any investment dealing with a lot of money and especially perishable goods, I do my homework. I’ve got my daughter who is a Bio-chemist at Syracuse, whose been running an experiment for 3 months, I wanted to wait 6 before posting, but this thread is getting all over the place. I stand by what I’ve posted and so far it’s coming along fine. I feel at 6 months the differences will be more tangible. She of course wants nothing to do with this, and is pissed I even asked her (it cost me). This deals only with the bacteria part of the ageing and not the leaf’s natural ageing that starts at harvest. That’s why they dry it, then bundle and take it apart and reorder the leaf in the bundle for even drying due to heat buildup. Over and Over again until its stable then it’s bundled for ageing.
I sent her some BBF, I figured it would be a simple VA and what I had that wasn’t a Vaper. She took eight small tubes sealed at different heights, with small amounts of tobacco 12/1/12. I had her take a look today. After bitching about it being a 6 month experiment and reactions would be small, this is what she observed under a microscope:
These were kept in a dark container.

1. Tube compressed with the tobacco. Tobacco compression with a small amount of oxygen yielded spotted colonies of anaerobic bacteria.

2. Tube stored with 1/4 oxygen by area yielded more spotted colonies of bacteria growth but much smaller size.

3. Tube stored with 1/2 oxygen by area had traces of aerobic bacteria still present.

4. Tube stored 1/4 oxygen by area and opened 3/1/13 and closed showed small areas of aerobic bacteria present where the anaerobic bacteria had previously recorded on 2/1/13. I plan on having her open it again at 5 months.

Minor size loss of less than 5%

These were kept in light.

Tubes 1 and 2: Spots with minor growth (25% comparison) equal density of anaerobic bacteria

Tubes 3 and 4: Small aerobic bacteria spots (50% comparison)

No noticeable change in leaf color and minor size loss of approximately 5%
Again I feel at 6 months, and another bribe to take it to a year will yield more drastic changes and I’m sure it will back up my theory on just the bacteria presence on the leaf.

So you have two processes occurring and I’m doing the experiments for my own storage methods and care only about the bacterial presence on the VA blends I’m storing. This is only to achieve maximum bacterial results. AGAIN- not leaf blending or it’s separate and independent ageing which will occur in any closed environment even sterile with no bacterial growth. I have other reasons for the study of bacterial formations on tobacco, but this is not a forum for their discussion. I’ve also studied cigar storage, safety and ageing for over 20 years, but again not for this forum.
I do store my long flake in 32oz jars on their sides because I want nice 6” planks not sagging and twisted flake. I keep a 20-25% oxygen level in long term jars. I have no fear of losing flavor in any size container as the tobacco can be parsed and vacuum sealed with a simple kitchen utensil. Keeping it cool will stop all activity after opening and remain as fresh and aged as when you opened it.
The quantities and methods of buying, selling and trading tobacco will have changed greatly in 10-15+ years, to ignore that is short sighted. Now this is for this forum, just another thread.
Burley and Latakia have their own issues mostly revolving around freshness. Most aromatics are heavily cased, topped and sealed, short of lighting them on fire you could probably keep them in a zip locked bag for 20 years. But people can do their own experiments on those.

 

[topd]

I don't see how looking though a microscope proves much, although interesting. As I said before, I'm

really not all that concerned about what's going on, but I do have a good idea. Several of the posts here

talk about opening the jar or container and letting in some air. I'm in the firm belief that the real

work begins after all the oxygen had been consumed. If you want your tobacco to be 'Aged' as if left

in the tin for years and years..... Leave the O2 out!

Those 'bugs' that do the work don't need it. They do their job after the oxygen is gone.

 

[rhogg]

I'm no scientist but I do know that Virginia tobacco is will vacuum seal a mason jar all on its own in some cases.... something is going on. That I am sure of.

 

[dragonslayer]

It comes down to biological reactions of organic matter which can be controlled. It’s basic molecular structure. You can slow things, speed things, change and even damage the structure. That’s why the study on the bacteria is important to me, and one of the reasons that it goes “flat.” None of the experts really go into detail on much more than aerobic and anaerobic bacteria being present, and don’t open the jar. What can be done to improve it, or if necessary stop or slow it? Experiment and find out. Like I said there are other reasons for conducting this. My main point was that experiments are taking place, and I'm sure by a few people including Greg.

 

[topd]

(I have a small bottle of Co2.... When I open my jars, I let some in there as I close it. I do

the same thing when I temporally pull the cork on a Single Malt Scotch)
(I should have patented that)

 

[dochudson]

I'm 63, so long term aging really isn't a factor for me. I have cigars that have been kept perfectly and after about 5 years most have lost their 'kick' and taste nothing like the reason I liked them to begin with. My son a principle research scientist at a very well known foundation one day saw me jamming the last of a bulk order into a mason jar and told me loosely packing and buying another jar would yield better results. I'm not cellaring for the aging benefit but to avoid future price, tax and availability issues.