Would tobacco transferred from sealed tins into hand-labelled mason jars have any market value for your family to sell upon your demise? I have seen many prestigeous tins realizing high auction prices. They even appear on ebay with the disclaimer that the collectible tin itself is the auction; the contents non-consumable. Question two; How would you know for sure that the jarred product would smoke so much better than if left in the tin?
The Theory Behind Aging Tobaccco
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After examining the crystallographic data, I have concluded that the changes in tobacco included the separation and degradation of the cuticle layer, the formation of inorganic precipitates, formation of a melt phase, volatile gas and vesicle formation, and surface etching. The carbon matrix of tobacco ranged from a homogeneous amorphous character at lower temperatures to a heterogeneous, mixed micro-crystalline structure at high temperatures with domains of graphene sheets, fullerenes, and graphite. These findings however, offer no conclusive evidence as to the impact of ozonic interruptions in the stabilized field.
:P
Every article I've ever read says you want some air in the tin for proper aging. How then can you say that oxygen is not needed?
Or, are you saying that in the beginning it is important, but you believe that an equally, if not more important, process occurs after all the oxygen has been consumed?
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I'm looking forward to Dragonslayer's results. It does look like you kill the anaerobic bacteria when you open expose the tobacco to air, and the aerobic bacteria takes over for a few months until the oxygen is consumed.
So, which bacteria is most responsible for ageing the tobacco? Or do they both play an equally important role?
Also, maybe the two bacterias age the tobacco differently from each other? So if you keep opening the tin to give it more oxygen you could ineed still be aging the leaf, just differently. That totally makes sense to me.
I just don't think we have a firm grasp on the different ways of aging the blends yet, because it seems to be easier to just leave it in the tin/mason jar, and not opening it every year or so to keep the aerobic bacteria alive.
I love the discussion. This can, and should, go on for a very long while.
roth, my experience with aged Virginia's in large containers is different I guess. I recently acquired( 3 months ago) 3 pounds of 2006 Sg Best Brown flake that was stored in two jars and it is superb. It is not flat at all and I love the stuff. My own experience with aging in 1 pound containers is the same. I used to age English blends in those size containers and after 5 years or so they were great. Maybe it is just my taste buds but I have found no difference in the Best Brown in the last 3 months of smoking it on a regular basis. It has not flattened at all, it is still sweet, creamy and delicious.
roth,
I think that sums it up perfectly. I think there are very few absolutes when it comes to pipes and tobacco. We all have our idiosyncrasies and ways of doing things we are comfortable with.
Aging doesn't stop when you open the tin, but it definitely changes. It's actually not all that mysterious, but it is quite complex. "Aging" actually covers a multitude of things. There are both biological metabolism and chemical reactions taking place. In the case of fermentation, both bacteria and yeasts are actively doing their thing, and there are organic reactions that will change in response to the environmental factors within the tin. Even things like storage temperature can result in dramatic differences between two identical tins of tobacco over a period of years.
Attempting to accelerate the process won't work. Prematurely depleting O2 from the environment won't work. Basically *anything* that changes the environment will alter the outcome. Sure, you'll get *something* that looks like aging, but it won't be the same as aging that takes place naturally.
There are aerobes that requite O2, facultative anaerobes that continue to metabolize, though through different pathways, with or without the presence of O2, and there are obligate anaerobes that go dormant in the presence of O2. These can be yeasts or bacteria, each doing their own thing. Remove the O2 too early, and aerobes won't have their chance to dance. Keep introducing O2 through opening and closing the jar, and obligate anaerobes will stay in bed. Some bugs are pretty sensitive to temperature, so heating a tin, or cooling it off dramatically will drastically change what's going on in that little biosphere.
Complicating this is that there are cascades of organic reactions taking place - production of alcohols, aldehydes and esters, fermentation of acids. Different reactions will have different rates depending on the ever-changing environment (what's available) and temperature. When I say it's a complex system, I ain't kidding. Wine makers know how important environmental factors are. Cellar temperature, cork porosity, even *gasp* screw caps change the way a wine ages once it's bottled. Pipe tobacco's not much different. Two bottles of the same wine aged for a decade or two can turn into nail-polish remover (not really) in one environment, or evolve into something spectacular in another. I've not had tobacco turn noxious from poor storage, but I've seen very different results from a few years under different storage conditions.
As one thing happens, it sets the stage for another. Change something early in the game (evacuating O2), and what you'll find years later will be surprisingly different. Butterflies and hurricanes.
As you might figure, I've done considerable messing about with this stuff. To those who call "Horsehit," with nothing more than opinion to back it up, I offer the following experiment. Take any natural tobacco that you like, from recent production. Divide it into four clean canning jars so that they are all quite full, but not tightly packed. Put three of the jars away in a cool, dark closet. The fourth, you will open and re-close daily, as though you're smoking the tobacco. At the end of a year, compare the regularly opened jar with one of the sealed ones. You'll notice a distinct difference. Re-seal the year-old jar, and put it away. Continue for another year, and then examine the difference between the regularly opened jar, the first you opened, and a third one, opened for the first time. Three different results - one tobacco.
I can't claim to even begin to understand what's going on, and have only scratched at the surface. But, it doesn't take much looking to realize that what's going on is surprisingly complex.
Attempting to accelerate the process won't work. Prematurely depleting O2 from the environment won't work. Basically *anything* that changes the environment will alter the outcome. Sure, you'll get *something* that looks like aging, but it won't be the same as aging that takes place naturally.
There are aerobes that requite O2, facultative anaerobes that continue to metabolize, though through different pathways, with or without the presence of O2, and there are obligate anaerobes that go dormant in the presence of O2. These can be yeasts or bacteria, each doing their own thing. Remove the O2 too early, and aerobes won't have their chance to dance. Keep introducing O2 through opening and closing the jar, and obligate anaerobes will stay in bed. Some bugs are pretty sensitive to temperature, so heating a tin, or cooling it off dramatically will drastically change what's going on in that little biosphere.
Complicating this is that there are cascades of organic reactions taking place - production of alcohols, aldehydes and esters, fermentation of acids. Different reactions will have different rates depending on the ever-changing environment (what's available) and temperature. When I say it's a complex system, I ain't kidding. Wine makers know how important environmental factors are. Cellar temperature, cork porosity, even *gasp* screw caps change the way a wine ages once it's bottled. Pipe tobacco's not much different. Two bottles of the same wine aged for a decade or two can turn into nail-polish remover (not really) in one environment, or evolve into something spectacular in another. I've not had tobacco turn noxious from poor storage, but I've seen very different results from a few years under different storage conditions.
As one thing happens, it sets the stage for another. Change something early in the game (evacuating O2), and what you'll find years later will be surprisingly different. Butterflies and hurricanes.
As you might figure, I've done considerable messing about with this stuff. To those who call "Horsehit," with nothing more than opinion to back it up, I offer the following experiment. Take any natural tobacco that you like, from recent production. Divide it into four clean canning jars so that they are all quite full, but not tightly packed. Put three of the jars away in a cool, dark closet. The fourth, you will open and re-close daily, as though you're smoking the tobacco. At the end of a year, compare the regularly opened jar with one of the sealed ones. You'll notice a distinct difference. Re-seal the year-old jar, and put it away. Continue for another year, and then examine the difference between the regularly opened jar, the first you opened, and a third one, opened for the first time. Three different results - one tobacco.
I can't claim to even begin to understand what's going on, and have only scratched at the surface. But, it doesn't take much looking to realize that what's going on is surprisingly complex.
The conversation confuses me, but that really isn't that hard to do! I understand the wisdom is VAs age well and get better with age. I assume that a blend like Frog Morton Cellar does also. If it doesn't, I assume it at least doesn't get worse if stored correctly. Would a blend like 1Q age well or at least not get worse if stored correctly? - bp
I'm going to bump this thread to see if it can inspire any more conversation as it has been two years since anyone has posted in it.
My problem (1st world) is that I don't know if aging is really "worth it". I tend to enjoy young blends better than most of my aged blends that have 5-10 years on them. I have a few blends that definitely get better with a good 6 months on them but beyond that, they tend to get too soft for my taste. As far as English/Balkan blends go, I think that aging them absolutely ruins the composition and they taste as if they're missing something and are completely void of character after the 10 year time frame. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules. That exception for me is Penzance.
As far as the experiment that Mr. Pease laid out regarding 1 tobacco, 4 different containers to store them in. I have recently completed a similar experiment and the results were subtle at best and the differences noted were probably more suggestive than anything. Some people will tell themselves they just don't have the pallet that Lord Pease does(all hail Pease) but I say that's hogwash, trust your pallet, trust your gut. Everyone knows you can fool a wine snob with a blind taste test, the power of suggestion is indeed powerful.
Are these subtleties worth it? That's up to you. I have come to the conclusion for myself that, no, it's not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I have a pretty good sized cellar in my home but I don't cellar for the same reasons a lot of you do, I cellar to have my favorite tobaccos on hand, as we all know, prices will only go up and certain blends will get discontinued and hard to find. I can sleep good at night knowing that I have all my favorites in one place, although I don't sleep much because I'm up all night smoking them.
Overall, I think we tend to overthink this aging business, of course there are chemical/biological changes taking place but don't go putting off your favorite smoke because you think it will be amazing 10 years from now. The time is now! Smoke up! Stock up and enjoy yourself. By all means, if waiting 10-20 years gets you off, than more power to ya, have fun waiting,
My problem (1st world) is that I don't know if aging is really "worth it". I tend to enjoy young blends better than most of my aged blends that have 5-10 years on them. I have a few blends that definitely get better with a good 6 months on them but beyond that, they tend to get too soft for my taste. As far as English/Balkan blends go, I think that aging them absolutely ruins the composition and they taste as if they're missing something and are completely void of character after the 10 year time frame. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules. That exception for me is Penzance.
As far as the experiment that Mr. Pease laid out regarding 1 tobacco, 4 different containers to store them in. I have recently completed a similar experiment and the results were subtle at best and the differences noted were probably more suggestive than anything. Some people will tell themselves they just don't have the pallet that Lord Pease does(all hail Pease) but I say that's hogwash, trust your pallet, trust your gut. Everyone knows you can fool a wine snob with a blind taste test, the power of suggestion is indeed powerful.
Are these subtleties worth it? That's up to you. I have come to the conclusion for myself that, no, it's not worth it. Don't get me wrong, I have a pretty good sized cellar in my home but I don't cellar for the same reasons a lot of you do, I cellar to have my favorite tobaccos on hand, as we all know, prices will only go up and certain blends will get discontinued and hard to find. I can sleep good at night knowing that I have all my favorites in one place, although I don't sleep much because I'm up all night smoking them.
Overall, I think we tend to overthink this aging business, of course there are chemical/biological changes taking place but don't go putting off your favorite smoke because you think it will be amazing 10 years from now. The time is now! Smoke up! Stock up and enjoy yourself. By all means, if waiting 10-20 years gets you off, than more power to ya, have fun waiting,
This sums up your post, IMO. What can anyone say that would make your taste buds change? We could all tell you that you're wrong till the cows come home, but you are going to rely on your tastebuds, as you should.
Whether we cellar away tobacco because we want to age them, or to avoid oncoming price and tax increases, or because we are at the doorway of retirement and fixed incomes, we tend to take into consideration "how" each blend will change with age. So, we discuss it. If you are not a fan of aged blends, you have the income where increases in cost don't scare you, and you're young enough to where retirement seems like a lifetime away, then your plan should be much more simple than those of us who have aging blends on our mind.
@Cosmic
I guess I have had unrealistic expectations when it comes to aged blends. As you have stated, I always take into consideration how a blend will age. Because of my experience with English blends tasting flat with age, I tend not to store any English blends long term, they are to be smoked in 2-3 years tops. The majority of my cellar is VA and if they change for the better than great but I hoard VA's because I know they won't turn for the worse like my English blends have.
Yes, the sum of my post was aged vs. young blends and yes personal taste is always a factor within every aspect of pipe smoking. Maybe my post came off the wrong way, it was meant to inspire discussion not to argue about who's right or who's wrong.
I guess I have had unrealistic expectations when it comes to aged blends. As you have stated, I always take into consideration how a blend will age. Because of my experience with English blends tasting flat with age, I tend not to store any English blends long term, they are to be smoked in 2-3 years tops. The majority of my cellar is VA and if they change for the better than great but I hoard VA's because I know they won't turn for the worse like my English blends have.
Yes, the sum of my post was aged vs. young blends and yes personal taste is always a factor within every aspect of pipe smoking. Maybe my post came off the wrong way, it was meant to inspire discussion not to argue about who's right or who's wrong.
It would be impossible to argue who is right and who is wrong, because there is no right and wrong when it comes to the aesthetics of taste. In my own experience and taste buds there are Latakia blends that age well for me. If your tastes don't like the way they age, then how could I possible argue with that? And, as a hound for fine Virginias, I also find many Virginia blends take way too long to age for my own realistic expectations. Likewise, I have some that I find do age well and with a realistic timespan.
It makes discussions easier to debate on forums when we generalize, but I find the reality of aging tobacco to be much more complex. I am still discovering stuff, and most of my most valued discoveries have come from trial and error. There are so many variables as to what makes a blends age well that it would just make things confusing to try to play in all of the if's and' and but's, especially when the debate gets as wide ranging as this thread.
But, I am not in the business of selling any ideas. I don't profit from people rushing out to buy the same blends that I do, and ha ha, As you can probably tell by my history here, I am not in the business of selling my ego. Like there's an award for being the best pipe smoker, ha ha.
Nah, I have learned a ton from my friends here, and I will ask questions, and pass about my own insights. I also understand and respect the taste buds of others.
You do not have to squirrel away any tobacco to be a real pipes smoker. If you prefer fresh tobacco, do your thing. Enjoy. Don't feel compelled to emulate Peck or Harris. Sure, I get jealous as hell of Harris's hoard of flake, but I also know that my own meager budget doesn't allow me to do what others do. Do what is best for you, bro. Enjoy!
It makes discussions easier to debate on forums when we generalize, but I find the reality of aging tobacco to be much more complex. I am still discovering stuff, and most of my most valued discoveries have come from trial and error. There are so many variables as to what makes a blends age well that it would just make things confusing to try to play in all of the if's and' and but's, especially when the debate gets as wide ranging as this thread.
But, I am not in the business of selling any ideas. I don't profit from people rushing out to buy the same blends that I do, and ha ha, As you can probably tell by my history here, I am not in the business of selling my ego. Like there's an award for being the best pipe smoker, ha ha.
Nah, I have learned a ton from my friends here, and I will ask questions, and pass about my own insights. I also understand and respect the taste buds of others.
You do not have to squirrel away any tobacco to be a real pipes smoker. If you prefer fresh tobacco, do your thing. Enjoy. Don't feel compelled to emulate Peck or Harris. Sure, I get jealous as hell of Harris's hoard of flake, but I also know that my own meager budget doesn't allow me to do what others do. Do what is best for you, bro. Enjoy!
With a hobby such as this, we tend to, at the least reach a consensus of what works and what doesn't. The consensus overwhelmingly says that aging blends will reap great rewards. I read about that on every site I frequent, in reviews, in advertisements and blogs. I'm trying to see if others have similar experiences to mine. The idea that aging tobaccos is a complex subject that could ignite great discussion is kind of the point, bro. I like to do what's best for me but when it comes to smoking a pipe I also like to talk about it with others to see if, what works for you, could possibly work for me, too.
I probably should have started a new thread, maybe it's too soon. I'm a young buck in this forum, maybe I'm stepping outside my bounds? I can see that this thread has run it's course, so I will pry no more.
I probably should have started a new thread, maybe it's too soon. I'm a young buck in this forum, maybe I'm stepping outside my bounds? I can see that this thread has run it's course, so I will pry no more.
No, your point is good. And, I've seen quite a few that don't believe in aging tobacco, even a few tough skinned seasoned forum vets.
It's easy to buy into aging blends. It reaches us on a common sense level, seeing ancient tins being posted and guys at pipe shows with eyes rolling back into their heads in extacy with an ancient out of production blend.
I too enjoy new blends. My rule is that if I don't enjoy it new, I don't stock up on it. Sometimes I'll make an estimated gamble, but for the most part...
It sounds like you are curious, anyways. Maybe take a chance on an eBay aged tin, maybe go in with friends. Check out a pipe show and get with a friend that has bought an old tin.
Your point is good. You just do what your taste buds say. Concensus, ha. I'm not much of a Bandwagon guy, but I did like some blends shared with me by friends from here... Enough that I started to do my own thing with aging. But, if I were a concensus guy, I'd be an all flake guy, but my own taste buds enjoy ribbons better. So... Concensus, schmensus. :
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It's easy to buy into aging blends. It reaches us on a common sense level, seeing ancient tins being posted and guys at pipe shows with eyes rolling back into their heads in extacy with an ancient out of production blend.
I too enjoy new blends. My rule is that if I don't enjoy it new, I don't stock up on it. Sometimes I'll make an estimated gamble, but for the most part...
It sounds like you are curious, anyways. Maybe take a chance on an eBay aged tin, maybe go in with friends. Check out a pipe show and get with a friend that has bought an old tin.
Your point is good. You just do what your taste buds say. Concensus, ha. I'm not much of a Bandwagon guy, but I did like some blends shared with me by friends from here... Enough that I started to do my own thing with aging. But, if I were a concensus guy, I'd be an all flake guy, but my own taste buds enjoy ribbons better. So... Concensus, schmensus. :
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I know what ya mean. I kind of got out of the loop for a few years and when I came back, everyone and there mother was smoking dark fired Kentucky's and praising it's glorious smoking qualities, a bunch of blends now carry dark fired Kentucky. I really like DFK but it's funny how quickly that became of "thing". I'm sure it's been around for a long time but I'm just now hearing about it. Concensus, schmensus, is right!
Pipe smoking is a personal thing. Hawky, I believe in another thread you mentioned you prefer Lat in its early stages. I am not a Lat guy, I like VA's. Having smoked about every age of VA straight out of a tin with no age on it to 20 yrs of age my personal preference is the more age the better. I find the sweetness has increased immensly and that is what I like in a smoke.
I havent a clue how a 20yr aged tin of Balkan Sobranie tastes vs a freshly opened tin - never had either. Sometimes a statement is made here without all of the background. Someone may chime in and say aging tobacco does nothing and then you come to find out they smoke only Aro's. My preference is to smoke a VA with as much as as possible, whether the container has been opened several times or not, because it tastes better to me than a freshly tinned VA.
I havent a clue how a 20yr aged tin of Balkan Sobranie tastes vs a freshly opened tin - never had either. Sometimes a statement is made here without all of the background. Someone may chime in and say aging tobacco does nothing and then you come to find out they smoke only Aro's. My preference is to smoke a VA with as much as as possible, whether the container has been opened several times or not, because it tastes better to me than a freshly tinned VA.
The suttlties are so small that I would never know. When I have opened up "aged tobacco" the taste and smoke is 5 times smoother but other the n that I am not sure. I have compared an aged tin to a non aged tin and the the only thing I noticed was the smoothness of the tobacco.
There is large amount of science behind tobacco aging thanks to big tobacco. In 1971,using Virginia tobacco, Noguchi showed the major Amadori (reaction in reducing sugar, such as glucose, with an amino acid) compounds present tend to show a gradual increase peaking at about 2 years and then a decrease. During the same period, the amino acid content of the tobaccos shows decreasing values each year. This also correlates with many persons saying that Virginia tobacco gets better after 2 years of aging.
http://www.leffingwell.com/download/Leffingwell%20-%20Tobacco%20production%20chemistry%20and%20technology.pdf
http://www.leffingwell.com/download/Leffingwell%20-%20Tobacco%20production%20chemistry%20and%20technology.pdf
You are comparing apples to oranges.
This thread is about aging tinned tobacco which is totally different than aging whole leaf. The tobacco you get in a tin has already been aged a minimum of 2 years before being purchased by the manufacturer. It is then processed( with sauces) in to pipe tobacco. It is these sauces that are affecting the aging of the tinned tobacco.
Where did you get the 2 year figure from? If you can put up a link that backs that up, I would love to see it.
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