Except, I only like Bob Dylan's songs when someone else does them.
Stolen or Style or Innovation
- Thread starter cosmicfolklore
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It happens alot, look at music, TV, or Movies- can they make a new movie that hasn't been done? Things are popular for a reason and how many more shapes are there for pipes.
I mean, how many companies make a Stratocaster - All of them. There's a reason for that.
I mean, how many companies make a Stratocaster - All of them. There's a reason for that.
Well, there is that. I wasn’t clear. I was focusing on gear, not the tunes.
Preface: You did say Discuss !
I have some questions:
Is the hypothetical art professor mentioned copying your image or doing an homage in a similar style ? Didn't many painters move to France to study impressionism under Monet and others ?
Is a pipe shape copyrightable ? Is a style copyrightable ?
If Carlo Scotti is correct, logically, each pipe is a work of art in and of itself and therefore cannot be "copied' --- ""I run a craftsman's shop, not a factory, my pipes are works of art, fruit of expert hands, heart and fantasy" - Carlo Scotti." (Quote stolen from internet
) As for metal work on stems I believe that may have been re-introduced by Cesare Barontini in Lovorno who trains other pipemakers - Ser Jacopo comes to mind. My Barontini looks remarkably similar to Ser Jacopo Delecta which came later :
. Barontini used to sell a semi-calabash shape called a B10. Now Peterson sells the same shape as B10. Italian pipe threads had some unconfirmed discussion that Barontini provided the stummels to Peterson for the Sherlock Holmes shapes but there was a rumored NDA agreement. Barontini now makes Stanwell pipes.As for noticing similarities the German Vauen classic line and Scottish Rattray's (now German Kopp) Majesty lines look extremely Irish to my eye.
As long as they don't blatantly 'steal' copyrighted material ... I prefer the wider selection of pipes for those of us who like a great well made pipe. and therefore :
And when they do there is always The People's Court:
Just 2 cents adjusted for current inflation !
I’m surprised Mummert can get away with using the word “Lego.” - sorry, random thought jogged by the discussion of copyright.
In the very early days of modern art, the artists all sort of pooled up in these little cliques of styles. Impressionism was the start of this. I guess the thought was, if I start doing something odd by myself, then I am just an oddball, sort of like Van Gogh. But, if I do this odd thing with a whole group of other artists, then I am in a "school of thought." Yeh, it was cowardly of them, IMO. But, as long as they weren't suing each other over copyright, whatever.
As to my hypothetical, I did mean a part of the subject matter. Like, If I , hypothetically was painting barbie dolls without their heads, and he came along and displayed a painting of a barbie doll without its head. But, since it was hypothetical, it could be any variation of that idea.
It could be. But, these guys are generally not billionaires, or even millionaires. Most are barely squeaking by. So enforcing a trademark in their design would just be a waste of money for someone who makes so little.
Can it be? sure. Not sure if it would fall under copyright or trademark, as I'm not exactly a lawyer in this area.
Artists are taking each other to court all the time. Musicians, writers, painters, etc... so, I don't think he is correct.If Carlo Scotti is correct, logically, each pipe is a work of art in and of itself and therefore cannot be "copied' --- ""I run a craftsman's shop, not a factory, my pipes are works of art, fruit of expert hands, heart and fantasy" - Carlo Scotti." (Quote stolen from internet
But... I did mention trademark and copyright, yes. But, I think this obscures the essence of what I was getting at.
Wait wait wait... when I googled Cesare Barontini, I went through a whole page before I saw a banded pipe. Google Neerups. You may find some without bands, but over 90% of the pipes are banded with these interesting intricate designs. Just doing a thing doesn't tie yourself to that thing, but by making that thing essential to most of your designs does. There is a difference, IMO.
Painters around Picasso were terrified of him seeing their work. He would go home and copy their paintings, except he made the better. Mostly to show the artists that he was better than them, which he was. But then he was known to destroy them, or only ever show them if he blew the idea out of the water. And, I am not sure Nording blew Pedder's designs out of the water here.
Well, depends on what kind. Mimicry, counterfeiting, forgery, parody, fakery, mockery, and parroting can be type of imitations that aren't very flattering.
It very well could be a situation like what @Hillcrest mentions, where maybe Pedder is making the bands for him. Maybe Eltang is turning some of those Compass pipes also. I have noticed that Pedder is making pipes for other people also, like Erik Stokkebye. And, Savinelli makes the bowls for a few other pipe companies as well, with them even keeping the shape names the exact same as well.
Throughout the history of pipes, pretty much everybody. The British makers copied the French and copied each other. A ton of American artisan makers put out warmed over Danish. There are precious few originals out there, like a Paul Tatum, Lee Von Erck, J. T. Cooke, or Trever Talbert, to name a few. Every pipe maker who offers a thin flat bite zone is copying Barling, whether they know it or not.
Here is my take....
On Tom Eltangs site, it says this "Basic Poker" was designed by Tom in his Copenhagen workshop.
On Nordings site it says the "Compass" shape is "a Danish inspired shape".
This shape is unmistskingly Tom Eltangs. I remember when they came out he said he wanted a lesser priced pipe so more people could enjoy his work.
No place on Norings site does it say anything about this bring an Eltang design. But, Nordings site DOES say this shape is inspired by the Nordic Rune compass.
I believe this speaks for itself.
On Tom Eltangs site, it says this "Basic Poker" was designed by Tom in his Copenhagen workshop.
On Nordings site it says the "Compass" shape is "a Danish inspired shape".
This shape is unmistskingly Tom Eltangs. I remember when they came out he said he wanted a lesser priced pipe so more people could enjoy his work.
No place on Norings site does it say anything about this bring an Eltang design. But, Nordings site DOES say this shape is inspired by the Nordic Rune compass.
I believe this speaks for itself.
Very convenient to get inspired by an arbitrary thing, just after someone else makes a huge splash with the same design. This is why I never trust what business reps say. It's all full of shit. Anyone who believes that Nording just happened to be inspired by this thingamajig to make the exact shape that Eltang did is an idiot.
...of course take that with a grain of salt.
...of course take that with a grain of salt.
Obviously, you aren't a patent lawyer.
Are any of the pipe makers themselves complaining of this issue ? Do they have a union or organization overseeing themselves ... other than in France ? What can be done ?
I filed a 6107gh form with the Scandinavian Pipemakers union, amd a T423 for with the EUBoP, EU Board of Pipemakers.
JK for the obtuse.No, just a bunch if consumers discussing pipe stuff. What happens among pipemakers is there own shit. Ha ha.
As with everything on forums, it has no bearing on the real word. But, I was going to see if anyone wanted to give me medical advice on a spot on my penis.
Well then ... I would agree that copying is generally bad but some copied versions are better executed than the originals (in the lower price categories). At the artisan level that you are talking about ... they must see whats happening as well and are probably better able to address the situation amongst themselves.I filed a 6107gh form with the Scandinavian Pipemakers union, amd a T423 for with the EUBoP, EU Board of Pipemakers.
No, just a bunch if consumers discussing pipe stuff. What happens among pipemakers is there own shit. Ha ha.
As with everything on forums, it has no bearing on the real word. But, I was going to see if anyone wanted to give me medical advice on a spot on my penis.
The ill informed will be happy with whatever they buy. I could buy a Rattrays (Kopp) system pipe but its just not a Peterson and never will be. In fact I am looking at one of their pipes because it comes with a regular and churchwarden stem but its not a Peterson bent billiard no matter how much it looks like one. Of course they don't say it is either, just bent billiard. If I buy it I know I am getting a good pipe but not a Peterson pipe. Now if it goes one sale, well then, the ethical dilemma gets more real for me and I have a PAD decision to wrestle with.
I was thinking over the past several months that all of the pipes are beginning to look the same across brands and within brands and I don't think that is too healthy.
As for the spot, I'm not touching that one ! There are others on here more qualified to assist you.