Rogue One: Feminist Revistionist Crap

[warren]

I was speaking to the never ending quotes which appear. I've not seen any quotes, which I was addressing, state that a pipe improves women's ability to speak, philosophize, and so on. I seems it is always men who must opine on how smart they become when they stick a pipe in their mug. Perhaps women do not need such a crutch.
I have seen, on this site, photos of women with pipes. The women all improved the pipe, not the opposite. A tip of the hat to Kevin and his selection of women. His good taste in women is unassailable. The women's taste in the men they associate with may be questioned however. ::
I have seen MM video and they do have women working on the line. I'm betting that many manufacturers have women employed in the process.

 

[andrew]

Step 1: Someone posts sexist rant.

Step 2: Other posters disagree with sexist rant.

Step 3: Other posters are called "Herd-minded, PC weasel, FDA-supporting losers." (A paraphrase)

Step 4: This is justified as NOT trolling, just reasonable discourse.
Wow. Just wow.

 

[michaelmirza]

The only reason the elevation of females could be threatening is if you find your masculinity in lording over them. The world is still a heavily male-dominated place, and there's still a painfully long way to go before women have even close to equal status as men in so many realms. The fact that a woman having a lead role implies "revision" to you, Perdurabo, is indicative of the fact that you view maleness (of some subjective sort) as the norm or default, meaning other gender identities are "other" or "lesser." It's also not "revision" in any way because they're not rewriting something.
Anyway, Rey in TFA is a badass, and I'm sure this new woman will be too. By not being able to see that you're honestly just missing out.

 

[tmb152]

All very good and valid points, MM, I will only add that in the context of which I was speaking, I was thinking more of the impact this all has on the traditional family structure. For thousands of years, the man was the hunter, gatherer and protector while the woman was the nester, taking care of the home and raising the family. Men with their muscles and more aggressive tendencies are more adept at fighting off competing tribes, protecting the wife, killing food and conquering new territory (or defending said). The woman is more adept at making the home and rearing the children. The man cannot go out and do all he did without someone to stay behind and keep the home for him. The woman could not survive without the protection of the male and to kill the beast to provide the food. Man, woman and child created the wholesome family unit.
Today's society is one grand social experiment where all the roles have been mixed up. The woman provides for herself and gets her protection from a "civilized" society now where the man has been conditioned to be "gentle." The child often no longer has a strong stable male role to look up to and conflicting gender signals. Gender roles are in flux, family roles are in flux, ethical and morality roles are in flux. Whatever else one may say for the modern world, next time one wonders about why all the crime, confusion and deviate behavior in the world today, one needs look no further.
As mammalian organisms, our biological clocks are set deep within both our genetic code and millennia of acquired learned behavior and whether we like to admit or not, like the lion in the jungle, there is a natural order to things not in keeping with the artificial constructs of an imposed society. This creates internal conflicts, and how it affects the women I cannot say, how it affects children is pretty obvious in their behavior and the men, well, they go to the bar, watch the game, sublimate their pent up emotions on the team of their choice, and for a time, try to forget they have been cast out (largely) from the role they held for the past 450,000 years, even if they are largely still in charge.

 

[prairiedruid]

Me name Thud. Me hit woman over head and drag back to cave. She wife raise kid, me hunt. Me victim of genetics and biology.
Sorry, but no. We have this thing called a developed brain that allows us to adapt and dominate our environment and thus set up our civilization. Are we predisposed to certain roles and reactions.....yes to an extent. However most of us have progressed far from hunter gatherer to more "advanced" societal structures. To say that society's problems are due to gender confliction is I think a weak argument advanced by those with Thud's mentality. It's easy to say we're a victim of things we can't control. Harder is realizing life is what we make of it and that we are responsible for it. Yes there are things that are beyond our control but frequently we also are shaped by the choices we make. Just my 2 cents.

 

[fordm60]

I must agree that civilian society certainly has no love for a self sufficient male. A example from my experience to here in the civilian world. At work there is that guy, you all have met him, likes to be funny. Maybe snags something off your desk, or wants to give you a smack on the shoulder or whatever maybe the case. Now in civilian society I am supposed to go whine to my manager and let them handle it. I was taught being a pussy assed tattletale was not something to admire instead a tattletale is to be dispised. I can handle the problem easily, first be nice and talk with them, then if they do not listen, well now it is time to not be nice and simply solve the problem. Of course in civilian society everyone will freak out and condemn me for fixing the problem, in the Military that will not happen instead you are looked at as someone who can handle issues successfully.
Or another example from my life to show how men are expected to be pussies in civilian society. Right after I was medically discharged from the service and was attending university. I lived in some apartments by the university. One night the civilian and his girlfriend downstairs below me had been screaming and fighting for about 3 hours. I go downstairs and ring the doorbell. High speed answers the door and I kindly ask that they stop fighting. Mr. Civilian then says something about my sexual status with my mother. I tell civilian boy something rude in return. He does something stupid, I fix the problem. Some civilian, of course, calls the police. They show up and by this time I am back in my apartment. They actually come up and read me the riot act for handling the situation. No, they say I acted incorrectly I am supposed to just call them and that is all. The fact hero boy was going to jail for domestic abuse that night is probably the only reason I did not get in trouble. Bah!!
So now days everyone is scared, ohhhh don't confront someone for being screwed up they might get offended. Don't actually stand up for anything or the other civilians will not like you and the laughable authorities will come read you the riot act and maybe take you to jail. Do not be a man about things these days or you will find the civilians will make life hard on you.
Not agreeing with the op at all about movies. But I do agree civilian society wants nice pacified little boys and not men. Which is one of the reasons things are rather messed up today. A nark or tattletale is rewarded. No idea how that came about, a snitch is to be dispised period.
I step off my soapbox exhausted but happy lmao!!

 

[warren]

That over the eons man had been physically dominant is true. The idea of only man being the provider is, I think, hogwash. It is a myth perpetuated by . . . well, men. There are simply too many documented instances of women doing whatever was necessary to keep her children alive. Some fairly strong women, over the ages, have proven adept at hunting, waging war and leading men.
Men like to do the "fun" stuff (conducting wars, politics, hunting, pub crawling, being with the guys, getting away from the family and doing a little exploring) and leave the menial to the women. Oh, and the actual fighting of the wars is left to the children of the men.
What you see as moral decay and "deviate behavior" is the result of our society going through a stage which occurs periodically throughout history. The pendulum will swing back and forth until the sun snuffs us all out. Civilizations rise and fall, it's the nature of the beast.

 

[hakchuma]

Yall preaching to the choir now. But just wanna troll. Perdurabo, do you feel empowered now? Don't be afraid and step forward you pillar of wisdom...... $trollface$

 

[cullansghost]

<br />

 

[cullansghost]

What "realms" are women behind in? Are there not women astronauts, Generals, Heads of State, scientists, and inventors? Are there not women CEO's, business owners, and board members? Do women not fly combat jets, command ships and submarines, and ride in humvee's on the front- lines? Are women not actors, musicians, artists, and educators? Aren't women allowed to divorce and marry of free will, vote, own property, get an education and secure a profession? In what "realms" are women left behind?

 

[jollyroger]

Fordm60, your examples shine a light on your skewed perspective of civilized society, and I see why, I've seen it countless times before among ex military.

I too served for a very long period of time, but I made it a point not to forget where I came from and who I was before, in order to remain relevant when I do return.

First of all its ridiculous that you choose to refer to any person with whom you disagreed as a civilian. As if that puts him beneath you as an ex military man. It does not.
But more importantly, you've grown accustomed to an environment that is poorly governed, is absurdly skewed I it's male to female ratio, and in which often uncivilized behavior is considered acceptable.

Some days you'd be acting as judge, advocate and jury in a war zone, and the next you'd be home and how dare that inferior civilian not bow before your authority.
Society isn't backwards, your perception is. And you aren't a casualty if genetics. You are a casualty of an environment that does not align well with modern society.
Why should you be required to call the authorities as opposed to handling it yourself? Consider the following:

You overhear the argument, and wielding your masculine ego, you head on down to immaculate the guy. But the guy downstairs was already on the edge of a mental breakdown, and all he required was one last dose of humiliation, that you politely provided. Then you go upstairs, satisfied with your newly demonstrated manliness, while the guy crosses the line and severely harms his wife, taking out the aggravation you caused, onto her.

So in actuality, you directly caused the poor wife harm, when the police would have immediately apprehended the man and prevented additional harm from coming to the woman
Or alternatively, you knock on the door to take the matter into your own hands, and a superior fighter (there always are superior fighters) opens the door and leaves you with no teeth and a cracked cranium. You probably wouldn't be sitting here telling heroic stories of competence.
The police exist for a reason, as do the courts, the prisons, the armies, the law makers. They might not be perfect, but they are all more suited to handles their jobs than you are.

 

[michaelmirza]

Cullansghost: Only in the Western/developed world are those options available to women. And even then, there is infinite research and data that demonstrates that women overwhelmingly make less money for doing the same high-end jobs as men. Plus, the top of the food chain in each of the industries you listed is almost always a position held by a man. And I won't even get started on the double standards imposed upon women in terms of sexuality, politics, social norms, leadership traits, clothing, and more.

 

[sablebrush52]

Well this get pretty interesting. Robert I understand your view, but let me ask you this. In the military, aren't there specialists, people who carry out specific functions within the structure of a military society? Isn't there such a thing as chain of command? Isn't there such a thing as balancing personal initiative with working within a defined structure to achieve a designated goal?

Same thing applies in civilian life. As a manager, I had responsibilities to meet the directives of my superiors and to provide for my staff so that they could carry out their instructions. There were instances where I made decisions and took initiative to solve problems, and instances where I took problems to my superiors for their input. All of this in service to getting the job done.

Police are specialists. They have a job to do and want us civilians to let them do it.

When I was younger, I'd knock on that door and ask the downstairs bozos to keep it down. Most of the time, the bozos would grumble, but would acquiesce. But there were a couple of times where I ended up calling the police.

On the other hand, I used a pool cue, a wonderful persuader, to take out an idiot who was intent on shtupping an under aged girl with emotional problems, a student of mine, who had gone on a bender in a bar, when the availability of a gendarme wasn't an immediate possibility. In the first example I used the resources available to me in an organized society. That's what they're there for. In the second example, I took personal initiative because there wasn't time for ceremony.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I didn't feel like a pussy for calling a policeman in the first situation anymore than I felt like a hero for decking a potential rapist in the second one. I felt I was doing what needed to be done. It's an internal balancing act. But if we're all just running around on our own all we have is chaos.

When I took yoga classes years ago to deal with severe sciatica, my teacher was a rather short, stout, woman who was also a physical therapist and a black belt in Aikido. That woman had amazing energy. While explaining the dynamics of a pose, she would grab a pair of ropes, walk up the side of the wall, flip, stick the landing, and repeat, over and over. No way would I ever take on that broad!

 

[cullansghost]

There is NOT "infinite research and data" for what you assert. For every chart you can google, I could do the same in support of my own viewpoint. The fact that you use "income" as some sort of qualifier on which to base "equality" is ludicrous. Perhaps I should enter your livelihood making as much or more as you, day one, simply because I inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide and we are equal. My skill set makes no difference since we share "equality."

 

[sablebrush52]

There is NOT "infinite research and data" for what you assert. For every chart you can google, I could do the same in support of my own viewpoint. The fact that you use "income" as some sort of qualifier on which to base "equality" is ludicrous. Perhaps I should enter your livelihood making as much or more as you, day one, simply because I inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide and we are equal. My skill set makes no difference since we share "equality."

Let me understand. You don't believe in equal pay for doing the same job with the same level of skill, based on gender?

 

[fordm60]

Hmmmmmm. JollyRoger I can see some of your points as relevant. But not all of them. First I will readily admit I agree with damn near everything I learned I the service, not everything mind you, but a lot. Handle it at the lowest possible level. A golden rule in the service. If I solve a problem no one goes to jail, no one now has a feloney and has lost all their rights. Now you say "wielding my mascaline ego" I say I am tactically sound I do my best to keep ego out of tactical situations as ego has been known to write checks your body cannot cash lol, to paraphrase a old movie. If I call the cops, first I am a nark, second I do not feel good about me because I just called the cops and stupid is now going to lose his firearm rights at a minimum. If I have a good tactical assessment, and in this case for sure my assessment was sound then problem solved at the lowest level and stupid does not lose his firearms rights for life. I suspect we shall have to respectfully disagree Jollyroger. In the words of a genius, " people beseech me, but they'll never teach me, things that I already know." .
Sable, I like and respect you greatly as such I do not want to engage, we can discuss this topic sometime while enjoying the cool breeze and the stars while puffing contentedly on a pipe.

 

[perdurabo]

Hakchuma, I brought forward a topic(read original post, in this case SW and the two female leads) Are we just creating Female roles for the sake of doing it. I read your response about being a black guy, this was never meant to be a sexist/racist rant, but a discussion/debate. Big pond let go with moron and few other fools couldn't see past the ideological eye glasses. Looks like the thread has gone in a few different directions. That's cool. But honestly, those of you who gave an honest calm response, you should be proud, no emotion baggage. The rest, I never really expected anything more.

 

[jefff]

I have always preferred threads that meander and change direction. That how real conversations work.
I also like differing, sometimes vastly differing opinions. On the internet it is easy to seek out things that confirm you previously held beliefs.
That's never a good thing.

 

[tmb152]

I see we have a number of philosophers in this thread who obviously pick and choose what they want to believe and do not have actual training and experience in the related fields. Not having seen the SW movie yet, I cannot comment directly on it, but in general, the OP is quite right in that female roles are often created not because they make sense in the story line, but simply because of the desire that they want the girl to have "her turn," and I'm sorry some few have chosen ad hominem attacks as a result. We may even choose our next president on that basis rather than looking for any real qualifications. The argument that we have a developed brain superseding the reptilian brain at its center does not change the fact that we are instinctual creatures, and while one may try to impose artificial forced change through threat, fear and conditioning, it is in general conflict with our genetic and instinctual centers which are deeply embedded and only change slowly with the millennia.
Men have heavier bones and different larger muscles, testosterone and other differences FOR A REASON. We are the hunter, the aggressor. And women are totally different in their nature, optimized for a different purpose. Of course, that is a generalization, there are exceptions. But in general, guys approach problem-solving from a different direction than the girls do, and look at any get-together of friends and you will generally see the guys and girls gravitate together into separate groups with different topics of interest. And discussing the same things, each gender will generally see the problems and the solutions very differently!
Not sure how much this has to do with the original topic, but I will leave you with this: put all the guys here back into the old west of 1860 or even 1930 and very few here could cut it with the other guys then. Sorry guys, but the world you know today has largely only been around and developing and has been imposed upon you by societal forces with a clear agenda of fundamentally going against nature for a politically correct end for roughly the past 50 years, and that IS science fact. Now go enjoy your movies. ;^D

 

[jefff]

I am going to need citations for your scientific FACT.
Thank you.