Quality Of Dagner Pipes

[okiescout]

Pylorns, that Rhodesian Bulldog P2 Brown is a cute little pipe.
Sadly our courts are not set up to protect artists and graphic designers. Simply stealing art and adding some crap to it is often enough to avoid anything beyond a cease and desist.

Too often the dark truth! :evil:

 

[misterlowercase]

Making a meme is theft if the definition is that narrow.
MoMA sez:

"Appropriation is the intentional borrowing, copying, and alteration of preexisting images and objects. It is a strategy that has been used by artists for millennia, but took on new significance in mid-20th-century America and Britain with the rise of consumerism and the proliferation of popular images through mass media outlets from magazines to television.
Pop artists like Robert Rauschenberg, Claes Oldenburg, Andy Warhol, Tom Wesselman, and Roy Lichtenstein reproduced, juxtaposed, or repeated mundane, everyday images from popular culture—both absorbing and acting as a mirror for the ideas, interactions, needs, desires, and cultural elements of the times. As Warhol stated, “Pop artists did images that anyone walking down the street would recognize in a split second—comics, picnic tables, men’s pants, skateboard skulls, celebrities, refrigerators, Coke bottles.” Today, appropriating, remixing, and sampling images and media is common practice for visual, media, and performance artists, yet such strategies continue to challenge traditional notions of originality and test the boundaries of what it means to be an artist."

 

[daimyo]

Popeye is out of copyright in Europe, so what Mr. Eltang is doing is akin to an orchestra playing Beethoven without monetarily compensating Beethoven. That said, my earlier statement about morality not being defined by law stands. Ultimately Elzie Crisler Segar is dead and Vernon Courtlandt Johnson is not. But the argument for public domain is a completely different argument. Again, the argument for pop art and the actual usage of certain images without any artistic intent is more nuanced than the discussion here. Pop art can be valid without direct plagiarism being acceptable. You can do a homage without direct plagiarism, you can acknowledge your source. There is really nothing one could say to change my view of that Dagner shirt unless it was a licence agreement from P&P. I can give countless examples to back my side as well but what is the point?

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Just a postscript to this thread - I was Was watching the latest Dagner video tonight and Jay indicated that he does have PP's permission to use their iconic image.
I think it's around 16:50 to 17:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjjGzHKNOoU

 

[torque]

Funny how many times the word "theft" was used without a full knowledge of the facts. Awkward!!!

 

[daimyo]

Generally you don't "get their permission" rather you license the rights, which from a company of P&P's size usually runs in the 10-50k range. Then generally you revel in the fact you are making officially licensed product and list appropriate license information on the clothing itself. It could also be that P&P knows it will not be going after anyone who has altered the image a specific percentage because of how the laws protecting design and art are written. If everything has changed about the business since I exited it 10 years ago though and P&P is simply handing out written permission to use their graphics, then good for the Dagners. Again, it's not entirely their fault, misterlowercase is quite correct about how common it is. Having worked hand in hand with so many designers and artists though, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If they secured permission then I would withdraw my criticism. My opinion on this subject has far more to do with my time in the business than it does with the Dagners.

 

[daimyo]

Funny how many times the word "theft" was used without a full knowledge of the facts. Awkward!!!

I still have no reason to believe this is a licensed product and I would still hold the same criticism about not recreating the image from scratch if they wished to do a homage. You are taking Vernon Courtlandt Johnson's style without adding your own, simply shopping in a few additions. That to me is a form of theft, regardless of the business details and not the right way to pay homage to anyone. I would have the same criticism of any clothing manufacturing doing this specifically, even if it was one I was working for.

 

[daimyo]

Well, that did not come across as I meant it. Let me say this, if they secured permission then I owe them an apology but it seems rather fishy. Powell & Peralta make more or less all their money off selling their designs. Selling them on shirts, hoodies, hats, skateboards and wheels. Their graphics and intellectual property and the associated history are literally their lifeblood as a business. I have never heard of a branding driven company handing over written permission for someone else to profit off without compensation both monetary and in the portrayal of said licensed merchandise. For instance if you make NFL licensed clothing they are going to want the letters NFL on the merchandise, the tags and the print adds. As the person who secured these rights, you're going to let folks know. If this is an approved design and they have written permission then it is the oddest situation I have seen in decades of experience. So while I have based my opinions on my personal knowledge of the business P&P is in, I do not have any actual knowledge and should not be making assumptions. For this point on, I will keep my clothing, art, design and licensing opinions to myself as they really have nothing to do with pipes and I do not wish to steer future threads in this discussion. While my opinions on graphic design and the legal/business sides are strongly held, I do not wish to derail threads and piss people off. My apologies if my ranting has offended anyone here. I am generally a laid back person about people doing their thing and despite having such strong opinions on these matters, I wish the Dagners and anyone else who can turn a hobby into profit the best. I tend to get worked up when artists payment and licensing deals are the subject but that is neither this boards nor the Dagners fault or issue.

 

[peckinpahhombre]

Hey Daimyo, to be clear I wasn't criticizing you in any respect. You are entitled to your views. I just saw them make that comment and thought it was interesting in light of the discussion here.

 

[daimyo]

No problem Peck, I did not take it as such. Sometimes I forget how passionate I can get about these subjects. After years of working with artists and watching them be taken advantage of, my emotions can get the best of me. Regardless of the situation, Torque is correct that I am making assumptions if nothing else and that is a poor position to be debating from.

 

[leonardw]

I heard they smoke great with Captain Black. (pardon, inside joke if you've seen some of their videos).

 

[alexnorth]

I'm reviving this thread!

The Dagners have released the third run of their line and it's with a diamond stem and copper band. I really like the bent bulldog one

 

[wcannoy]

The Dagners have released the third run of their line and it's with a diamond stem and copper band. I really like the bent bulldog one

Now, that's a pipe I'd buy... if I didn't make pipes.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; The Devil Anses and Pokers and Blowfish are out. The season of the Bulldog is upon us! :P

 

[mcitinner1]

Just went through this whole thread....the thing that struck me the most....I obviously never looked close enough, because I always thought Peck's avatar was Gregory Peck!

 

[maxpeters]

I agree with you jackswilling. Way too cool for me too.