Pipes is Politics

[woodsroad]

Allow me to preface this new thread with something that ae1pt said in the previous incarnation of this discussion:
There is always politics
Politics is the interactions between people. It "...is the practice and theory of influencing other people on a civic or individual level. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community...".
So, in moderating this forum, there is politics. In discussing why ones pipe, or tobacco, or tamper is superior to another, there is politics. Certainly, in discussing why our government seeks to control our hobby (and in many cases, our livelihood) out of existence, there is politics. The very survival of this forum is steeped in politics. It can be reasonably assumed that there will come a time in the very near future when the online discussion of controlled substances is limited or eliminated. Certainly, we will see a prohibition on all tobacco advertising. That alone is going to kill this forum.
Shall we ignore it? Pretend it isn't going to happen? Or shall we engage the politics that is killing pipe smoking? This forum is toast as soon as the advertising ban takes place. We need to talk about the issues, be honest about the who what, when, where, why and how. And we need to act.
Or, we can just say "no politics" and roll over.

 

[drwatson]

:clap:

 

[peckinpahhombre]

There is part of me that thinks that if everything is politics then nothing is. I think most look at politics in the same way as pornography - they can't define it, but they know it when they see it.
I guess I am coming around to the view that we should try and not delve into issues on here beyond pipes and tobacco. I think it is hard to have a truly civilized discussion about hot button issues without face to face interaction. In my own case, for example, trailboss and I have had a few friendly dustups. I think if we were having a smoke and arguing face-to-face about issues we believe are important then we would know that no ill-will is intended and we are just trying to bust each other's nuts. In a forum like this though, where we only stare at the written word without proper context or the ability to read body language, it truly does make it exceedingly difficult to have a civilized discourse. If an honest political discussion is possible, I believe it can only be achieved in the realm of personal physical interaction and not through a venue like this.

 

[phil67]

I think if we were having a smoke and arguing face-to-face about issues we believe are important then we would know that no ill-will is intended and we are just trying to bust each other's nuts. In a forum like this though, where we only stare at the written word without proper context or the ability to read body language, it truly does make it exceedingly difficult to have a civilized discourse. If an honest political discussion is possible, I believe it can only be achieved in the realm of personal physical interaction and not through a venue like this.

Exactly my view also peck. I also own and run a forum site and the discussion of politics is absolutely forbidden, no exception whatsoever. Just as you so aptly pointed, the typewritten word can get a tad snaky at times and misconstrued. If one wishes to discuss politics there are a plethora of dedicated forum sites for that purpose... take it there.

 

[dread]

I concur with Peck 100%.
Sh#t.
:|

 

[latbomber]

I believe that the reason politics are generally not allowed is because although the majority of users here can have a gentlemanly and respectful discussion about politics, there is frequently the tinfoil hat wearing nutjob type that jumps in and ruins the quality of the thread and gives the whole board a bad vibe.
I come here to talk pipes and other related things. If this board got filled with crap posting about gun control/healthcare/ etc I would move on to another forum. The mods here do a great job and are the reason this is such a comparatively high quality forum.

 

[woodsroad]

Latbomber, you are entirely correct.
What I am saying, and perhaps I wasn't clear about it, is that pipes, pipe tobacco and smoking are inextricably entwined in politics. And we must discuss our collective future, irregardless. I am not advocating a free-for-all, anarchy or soapboxing.

 

[woodsroad]

Rsun, people are generally a bit more considerate when they can hear inflection and see expressions. Our recent phone conversation bears that out! Text is, at best, two dimensional. Turn sideways and all meaning vanishes. You, however are still a ... Oh, never mind.

 

[sablebrush52]

What I am saying, and perhaps I wasn't clear about it, is that pipes, pipe tobacco and smoking are inextricably entwined in politics.

And that is an already recognized and approved topic here since there is a forum for tobacco legislation. When confined to that issue I have no objection to a lively discussion.
But ad hominem rants about others' political and ideological beliefs, party alignments, etc. are generally annoying, useless, and pointless. If I want to watch a shit slinging chimp fight over a political issue there are any number of other places to to engage in that.
Keep it to issues directly related to pipes and tobacco and I'm all for it.

 

[macattack]

I'm picking up what you're putting down. Tobacco has become a political issue. As long as there is a group of politicians trying to abolish tobacco it will be political. There is no way around it. They won't make it illegal but they will tax it out of existence.

 

[claypipesarchaeologist]

Meaningful, civilized, political discussions revolving around tobacco consumption are possible IF people read each other's comments "in good faith." Try to see it from their side, be empathetic, and give them the benefit of the doubt instead of projecting things that piss you off onto someone's comment. Politics are a touchy subject, and people are naturally touchy about that which they fervently believe.
If you can mitigate your defensiveness and try to avoid finding "the enemy" in comments made on this forum, we can have some valuable and productive discussion. Well said, Woodsroad :clap:

 

[peckinpahhombre]

And very well said claypipe

 

[claypipesarchaeologist]

Easier said than done, I'm afraid.

 

[woodsroad]

When it's said as clearly and succinctly as you've done, then it's really not that difficult. But very rewarding!

 

[lordnoble]

Correct. In a broad view, yes. Everything is political. Here's the problem: it seems EVERY TIME we talk about things that slightly brush a hot button topic, the thread spins into hot mess. There are members who contributed for years that have all but stopped because people can't stick to the "No politics" rule. I don't give a rat's ass what party you belong or don't belong to. I don't care what pundit you agree with.
Peck has it right. If we were face-to-face, we'd all get along (for the most part). I wouldn't care if you were pro-life, anti-vegan or apathetic. We'd be together for the express purpose of talking about something WE ALL care about: pipes and pipe tobacco. Sure, we would broach subjects like babies sniffing glue and marijuana legalities, but we'd do it in a civil manner. If we didn't see eye-to-eye, we would hear each other out and reflect. We would also be able to read each other's intentions better. Was Peck really saying that canadian bacon is better than it's american counterpart or was he just saying that to get me going? Oh, he's grinning. He's busting my chops. (For the record both are legitimate forms of bacon. I don't have an over-arching preference. Each form of bacon has its place depending on the situation.)
My point is that while tobacco has a side which is politically charged, we should try to keep to the things that directly impact pipe smoking. Sure, you can say that the government/administration is part of the problem and therefore fair game, but tobacco has been demonized for decades under multiple administrations. So to try and point the finger at one group is silly. Yes. We let the government do this to tobacco. Now we are reaping what we sow. Does that mean that this is the place for it? No. If you want to wax poetic about how The Man's got you down, there are other sites which cater to that sort of thing.
This doesn't mean I want anyone to leave. Far from it. One thing we do awesome on this site and particularly this forum is we have a wealth of pipe smoking hobby knowledge that is amazing. New smokers come here to learn from the "seasoned veterans". Even the "seasoned veterans" learn from the interactions with others on these forums. Our variety is what makes us great but we need everyone here to make it happen.
I'm sure there is more that I'll think of, but that's it for now.
-Jason

 

[tuold]

The point of a political discussion is to persuade others that they are wrong and you are right. In all my years of participating on Internet forums I've never, ever seen anyone "turned" by another opinion. It's futile. People believe what they believe and they are not going to be changed by a post in a forum. It's futile and tiresome.
On the other hand, in a forum such as this we can learn a lot from each other about pipes and tobacco. That's why I'm here.
I think I'm right on that....and others who think differently are wrong

 

[numbersix]

Peck has it right. If we were face-to-face, we'd all get along (for the most part).

I agree with this sentiment in spirit, but in reality, not so sure. Either way, like Peck wrote:

I think most look at politics in the same way as pornography - they can't define it, but they know it when they see it.

We all can tell when thread is getting too political and I am on board with the mods in shutting them down (at least in 99% of the cases). This is a pipe and tobacco forum and while it's nice to go off topic now and then, we shouldn't forget why this forum exists in the first place.

 

[keith929]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Peck.

 

[ssjones]

Well stated Jason and Jesse.

But ad hominem rants about others' political and ideological beliefs, party alignments, etc. are generally annoying, useless, and pointless. If I want to watch a shit slinging chimp fight over a political issue there are any number of other places to to engage in that.
Keep it to issues directly related to pipes and tobacco and I'm all for it.

My wife works for a politician, so I tend to be a little thin-skinned when comments call out "all politicians are (fill in the blank). I have other venues for political arguments, that generally go nowhere but get folks angry at each other.

 

[claypipesarchaeologist]

If people could be as fair with one another as Lordnoble is with bacon, the world would be a better place.