Pipe Mud and Pipe Cement (WARNING: GIANT POST)

[dimm]

So since I posted this I've been wondering how I could confirm any of my speculations about wood ash making a cement and tobacco ash not. Because theories are great but some sort of hard evidence would be nice. Luckily a simple test popped into my head today.
So geologists have been using a simple field test for identifying limestone for more than 100 years. This test is called them acid test. What you have to do is drop a drop of acid onto the rock and if it bubbles it is limestone and if it doesn't its not. This because acid reacts with (and dissolves) calcite which is what limestone is made of. This also happens to be how acid rain wears away limestone statues and buildings over the years. Calcite is also know as calcium carbonate which is what cement is (remeber limestone is one of the major ingredients of cement). So this same test should he able to disinguish cement from non cement.
Basically, I'm going to make 3 balls, one from pipe ash, one from cigar ash, and one from wood ash. Then, I'll drop some acid on each and see if they bubble. If it bubbles it confirms that the ball is made from a calcium carbonate cement.
I'll give this a shot with household acids (lemon juice or vinegar) and if that doesn't work I'll take it to my lab and try some stronger acids.

 

[dimm]

Now... if you're confused about the chemistry here don't worry... so am I (and how). Chemistry is not simple and as I said previously, Portland cement is not my specialty. However, I think I have finally put all the pieces together. And I can finally answer the silica question. But let me reexplain some things from the beginning...
So... calcite is calcium carbonate and it is what both limestone and cement are made of. The reactions that make cement and limestone are different, however, the final product is the same: calcite (calcium carbonate). In that sense it is acurate to think of limestone as natural Portland cement. Or to think of Portland cement as artificial limestone.
Now... having said that you cannot simply take calcium carbonate, mix it with water, and get a cement. That doesn't make any sense because calcium carbonate is a product not a reactant. It would be like grinding up hardened cement, mixing it with water and expecting another solid cement. You won't get that you'll just get a wet muck that dries back to a powder. However, ground limestone IS a raw material for cement, however the ground calcite is then heat treated and mixed with other materials to become a mix of calcium oxide, silica, and magnesium oxide. These three together will react with water to form calcium carbonate, the cement!
Now we can procede to wood ash. I found answers to many of my questions about wood ash in the following paper: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1993/misra93a.pdf its a little hard to read but contains all the information we need. So basically, when wood is burned it produces lots of minerals including forms of Mg, Ca, Na, Si, C etc. However, theprecise products depend on the type of wood and the temperature its burned at! This where things get interesting. Burned at a low temperature the product is largely calcium carbonate, calcite. As we just said, this IS cement so mixing this with water does not make a cement. It will simply dry up to the original powder of calcium carbonate. However, when it is burned at a high temperature you get a mix of calcium oxide, silica and magnesium oxide! The exact ingredients of Portland cement (with a bunch of impurities. This, when mixed with water will react to form calcium carbonate, cement. Now... what's even more interesting is thst not all wood forms these products. in the paper ash, pine and Douglas fir do but oak does not. So yes the pandoras box has been opened...
So right now my theory on this whole thing is that tobacco either does burn to produce ash which contains the mix of chemicals which produce calcium carbonate or the tobacco does not burn hot enough to produce them and, instead, produces unreactive calcium carbonate. The acid test should tell me which of the two it is.

 

[dimm]

The last paragraph should read: " So right now my theory on this whole thing is that tobacco either does NOT burn to produce ash which contains the mix of chemicals which produce calcium carbonate or the tobacco does not burn hot enough to produce them and, instead, produces unreactive calcium carbonate. The acid test should tell me which of the two it is".

 

[lifeon2]

ok so what kind of wood should we be burning? Also wouldnt this work just as well
http://www.lowes.com/pd_89400-73069-1666-0408-2_0__?productId=3593040&Ntt=laticrete+unsanded+grout&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl__0__s%3FNtt%3Dlaticrete%2Bunsanded%2Bgrout&facetInfo=
or even jb weld?

 

[jaysin]

Surly u could sell it theres a sucker born every minute

 

[bailey331]

Thanks for the information. I have an estate pipe I just got today that looks to need a little attention to the bottom of the bowl. I will give this a try and let you know.

 

[tokerpipes]

Realisticly couldnt you just put the ash in your bowl up to the level you desire and just add some water and let it dry? Or possibly add too much water and let it set till it dry/cured all the way?

 

[olderthandirt]

Well that's thinking outside the box toker.

Would be akin to mixing cement for a fencepost in the hole rather than in a wheelbarrow.
Give it a try and tell us how it works out!

 

[lordnoble]

I swear, I've read this thread twice and can't figure out.... Is Portland Cement just fireplace ash? So in theory, I can get a bag of Quikcrete and patch up the pits in my bowls? Should I be saving some of the fine ash from my outdoor fireplace? Or should I only be saving the ash from Douglas Fir or pine logs that I burn?
-Jason

 

[rhogg]

Portland cement is toxic. I would put it in a pipe.

 

[rhogg]

The idea of burning down a forest to create a parking lot sounds like one hell of a misplaced science experiment that will likely not yield the desired results.

 

[lordnoble]

The idea of burning down a forest to create a parking lot sounds like one hell of a misplaced science experiment that will likely not yield the desired results.

:rofl: I think you're on to something there! LOL!
-Jason

 

[dimm]

Okay so filling up your pipe with dry ash and then putting some water in will not really work because if you've ever mixed pipe mud you know that a big pile of cigar ash makes a tiny little ball of putty. Also you would wanna mix it seperately to get the proportions right.
On the topic of putting actual cement in a pipe I would not do that. Wood ash is not the same thing as regular Portland cement even though it is similar. Portland cement has lots of additives which wood ash does not. Portland cement is corrosive.
Anyways I would love for you to experiment with differentt wood ashes and report your findings. After reading into just how complex this all is I think some trial and error is in krder. So let's hear how your pipe cement works out!

 

[rhogg]

I let burnt matches get in the mix and it seems to make it a little harder.

 

[oakbear]

Anyone tried sodium silcate and activated charcoal for this?

Or am i better with cement?
I'm thinking of giving it a go for a pin hole in an antique briar...

 

[tokerpipes]

So i tried leaving some ash and adding some water to one of my MM cobs. I put a pipe cleaner in the shank so it was just in the opening of the bowl. Using a match stick I mixed it around a bit, once it was a little less squishy and more like a putty I used the tamper and my pinky to smooth it out. I let it dry for a week. IT WORKED. I will probably have to do this a few times to get it to the right level, but it does work.

 

[group4]

My days as a potter reminded me that fireplace ash can be extremely caustic, due to high alkalinity. Before attempting more experiments I encourage you to do a little further chemical investigation. Good luck.

 

[bobby46]

My 2cents:

Anyone against honey for break-in, tell it to yello-bole who ran ads in 1950's mags boasting their mfg process using it. I found it necessary for all my homemades carved off of my seasoned cherry tree logs. Without honey, any pipe made from cherry, black walnut or maple will have you your own mini-fireplace scent until carbon buildup. I read of maple syrup doing well; anything sugary/syrupy that you would eat may suffice for break-in.

Briar doesn't really need it.
My fireplace sometimes burns a parrafin log whose ash chemistry may be questionable. I'll stick to pipe mud from my own pipe ash. I've only used it in cobs, anyhow. Just my opinion..........

 

[bailey331]

Used your cement idea last night in an estate Whitehall I picked up a few weeks ago. the bottom of the bowl had several cracks in it but none that had gone all the way through. I packed and lined the bottom of the bowl with wood ash and spit. I formed an easy to work with putty and dried fast too. I let it sit over night to set up all the way and will most likely smoke that bad boy tonight. Thanks for the info. It was spot on.

 

[bentmike]

I just got a bent pot shape the other day and it looked like the vent hole was drilled just a touch too deep leaving a divot at the bottom of the bowl. I had just read your post so I asked my brother-in-law for some fine ash from his woodstove. I mixed with water until a thick paste developed and packed it into the little hole with a broken off cotton swab. Worked like a charm -now the bottom of the bowl transitions smoothly into the vent hole. Probably would have been fine as it was but little details like that irritate me and surly nasty dottle would have lodged in the hole.
Very interesting post by the way.