Picking on Brits a Bit

[MisterBadger]

And that's another oddity about Americans, they love to use Latin as a motto or as a kind of linguistic 'decoration' yet Latin was never spoken in America and I very much doubt many Americans can even speak Latin let alone translate a simple motto. It's just for show.

At school I was taught English (language & literature), French, German & Latin, all of which were spoken over here at some point in time. All of that was pretty regular curricula back in the 1970's English schools though Latin was only an option in some schools.

Jay.

I don't know about elsewhere, but a friend of mine in California learned Latin at High School there - though it was in the 1960s. My school in UK taught Latin but it seems to have been dropped from most school curricula (yes, I saw what you did, there) in recent years. It makes more sense to learn Spanish, which I believe next to Chinese has the world's most native speakers. Very few of my friends in UK have any Latin, and I've been asked more than a few times by some of them to translate something or other that they want as a tattoo motto. So to be fair, we in UK seem to be in much the same way as the US in that respect.

Oh, another thing: in my youth I was an altar server, and one morning of filthy weather when no one else had turned up for Mass, the parish priest (an old-school Catholic) suggested he and I celebrate in Latin, since the current requirement is that it has to be in a language all those present can understand. So we did: Latin has been in use in Britain more recently than most folk imagine - and it may well be the case in the States, too

 

[MisterBadger]

You run out?!

I do. Are you not a serious drinker?

 

[fireground_piper]

I do. Are you not a serious drinker?

Next thing you’re going to tell everyone is you also run out of tobacco. Is your furniture not made from your stockpiles?

 

[JoburgB2]

What does that have to do with Britain? Baden-Powell was a British. Boy Scout started in Britain under his leadership based on American Indian Scouting.

No, I don’t think so. Baden-Powell was not personally experienced with American Indian scouting. He served in southern Africa, in Zululand, and up in Bulawayo (then Rhodesia, now in Zimbabwe), and most famously, he was the commander for the defense (subsequently criticised) of the siege of Mafeking (now in South Africa close to the border with Botswana) in the (second) Boer War. I know others will correct any errors here, but Baden-Powell’s writings and presentations were based on his military scouting observations and experiences in that theatre. He was assisted later and influenced by a Canadian-American author who incorporated the North American Indian aspects into the US Boy Scouts. Or something like that.

 

[JoburgB2]

Now language is an interesting difference betwixt the US and Britain.

The epitome of English lexicographic endeavour (in printed form) would be the magisterial OED Second Edition. Twenty large, beautifully bound quarto volumes, 59 million words spread over no fewer than 21,730 pages. It took over 70 years to compile, and it would take a single person 120 years to key in the dictionary onto a computer and 60 years to proof read it. Just the word ‘set’ took over 60,000 words to describe the 580 senses of the word

The pinnacle of American lexicographic endeavour however is Webster’s Third Edition, a skinny 3 volume affair containing a miserable 2,816 pages, a lot of which is taken up by drawings to describe some of the more difficult words like cat, bridge, house etc. We do that in dictionaries made for children

I own both of these dictionaries, for the OED I had the village carpenter make me a bespoke bookcase just to house these beauties, the Webster’s Third Edition however just sits on a shelf.

View attachment 353680

Volume 1. A-Bazouki. That’s magnificent. Reminds me of The Cheese Shop sketch and “shut that bloody bazouki off!”

 

[JoburgB2]

And that's another oddity about Americans, they love to use Latin as a motto or as a kind of linguistic 'decoration' yet Latin was never spoken in America and I very much doubt many Americans can even speak Latin let alone translate a simple motto. It's just for show.

At school I was taught English (language & literature), French, German & Latin, all of which were spoken over here at some point in time. All of that was pretty regular curricula back in the 1970's English schools though Latin was only an option in some schools.

Jay.

Yes, for sure this is true. I happen to like my motto. But yes, you nailed it. It is just for show.

 

[JoburgB2]

One upshot of migration to the UK and Ireland from the colonies over the last few decades has been increasing imports to the UK/Ireland of
Sth African-brewed Guinness stout.
Apparently the colonials find the stuff available in the Mother Country TOO piss weak

I’m not sure of that difference. But there was a time when the Guinness in South Africa was brewed in Namibia and exported down south. Just as tasty to me. Namibia Breweries claim to fame was one of the world’s best, Windhoek Lager, a favourite, and an alternative to South Africa’s most popular Castle Lager. Wait! Isn’t this a pipes and tobacco forum? Apologies.

 

[Elric]

And that's another oddity about Americans, they love to use Latin as a motto or as a kind of linguistic 'decoration' yet Latin was never spoken in America and I very much doubt many Americans can even speak Latin let alone translate a simple motto. It's just for show.

At school I was taught English (language & literature), French, German & Latin, all of which were spoken over here at some point in time. All of that was pretty regular curricula back in the 1970's English schools though Latin was only an option in some schools.

Jay.

Latin mass was celebrated until the 50s or 60s, I believe.

 

[Brendan]

Ahhh! I was eyeing off a 6 pack of Windhoek lager the other day, wondering where the hell it was from.

I'd have guessed the Netherlands.

Anyway, I decided on a 6 pack of DAB instead. Again, going for german beer.

True story..

Edit: reply/add-on to Joburg's comment ^

 

[OzPiper]

I’m not sure of that difference. But there was a time when the Guinness in South Africa was brewed in Namibia and exported down south. Just as tasty to me. Namibia Breweries claim to fame was one of the world’s best, Windhoek Lager, a favourite, and an alternative to South Africa’s most popular Castle Lager. Wait! Isn’t this a pipes and tobacco forum? Apologies.

Apologies.
I made a mistake - it should have been Nigeria, rather than SA

 

[Infantry23]

And that's another oddity about Americans, they love to use Latin as a motto or as a kind of linguistic 'decoration' yet Latin was never spoken in America and I very much doubt many Americans can even speak Latin let alone translate a simple motto. It's just for show.

At school I was taught English (language & literature), French, German & Latin, all of which were spoken over here at some point in time. All of that was pretty regular curricula back in the 1970's English schools though Latin was only an option in some schools.

Jay.

At my public school I was taught proper English as well as French, Spanish, and yes, Latin. In college I continued those languages and added German and Russian.

Latin in the United States isn't for show. I would venture to say almost no one knows it and few would claim proficiency. However, we have an incredibly large, active Catholic population and the church still uses it. My sons are learning it as part of their alter serving duties.

As far as showy Latin, perhaps the military uses Latin as mottos?

I.e. "Utrinque Paratus" (Ready for Anything). Or maybe, "Quo Fas et Gloria Ducunt" (Where Right and Glory Lead). Perhaps, "Celer et Audax" (Swift and Bold).

However, these showy Latin mottos are all from Bristish military units. Parachute Rgt, Royal Engineers, and Rifles. I was only ever in 1 American unit that used a Latin motto out of the 6 different units I was in.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

And that's another oddity about Americans, they love to use Latin as a motto or as a kind of linguistic 'decoration' yet Latin was never spoken in America and I very much doubt many Americans can even speak Latin let alone translate a simple motto. It's just for show.

At school I was taught English (language & literature), French, German & Latin, all of which were spoken over here at some point in time. All of that was pretty regular curricula back in the 1970's English schools though Latin was only an option in some schools.

Jay.

I just had one year of Latin. I preferred French, four years in high school and one in college. To get a PHD, I had to show a proficiency in another language.

I made my kids all take Latin. They also took Spanish, and my oldest daughter used Spanish in her job all the time. But, I know that studying a foreign language helps one better understand their own.

I don’t know what to say about Latin phrases used in the US. Does that bother you?

 

[sablebrush52]

I have to say that I’m mightily impressed by all this erudition.

My attempts to learn French were, shall I admit, less than successful. My teacher passed me with the promise that I would never again attempt such a foolhardy act. Her exact words were, “You speak French like a demented pig. The thought that you might continue to try to speak my beloved language fills me with horror. So I will pass you if you promise never to do this again.”

Spanish and Italian went better and my Italian teacher loved my “perfect Tuscan accent.” Came in handy when I backpacked across Italy, though I mostly used it for cursing out the crazy drivers in Rome. Italians thought I was a native, so there were “benefits” there as well. But it’s been 50 years and I can barely manage English. I mostly speak “Artist”, which consists mostly of grunts and groans.
My mother was fluent in 7 languages, could curse in 5 of them, my father spoke 5, my siblings were all multilingual, leaving me the village idiot.

 

[mawnansmiff]

However, we have an incredibly large, active Catholic population and the church still uses it. My sons are learning it as part of their alter serving duties.

Ecclesiastical/liturgical Latin and Classical Latin are not the same thing, though granted, they are similar enough.

But my point was Latin has never been spoken in America as lingua franca. If not for the Catholic Church it would be pretty much unknown other than in older texts.

Jay.

 

[mawnansmiff]

I don’t know what to say about Latin phrases used in the US. Does that bother you?

Not in the least prof, you started the thread to bash the Brits so don't be too surprised when one particular Brit hits back.

You really shouldn't give it if you can't take it, that's just not cricket

BTW, I dropped Latin after a while and took tech drawing instead as I (wrongly) thought learning Latin was pointless in this day and age. Also the Latin master was a Mr. Eos and though he only had one arm, his temper was quite ferocious!

Jay.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

You really shouldn't give it if you can't take it,

Yes, you got me. I’m crushed. You win. Please stop criticizing our lack of being conquered and occupied by guys in togas.

 

[mawnansmiff]

Please stop criticizing our lack of being conquered and occupied by guys in togas.

The Romans brought much with them, flushing toilets, proper roads, underfloor heating etc etc.

Here is a member of your conquering force. I wonder how long before you elect him Commander in Chief as you most surely will



Jay.

 

[cosmicfolklore]

The Romans brought much with them, flushing toilets, proper roads, underfloor heating etc etc.

Here is a member of your conquering force. I wonder how long before you elect him Commander in Chief as you most surely will

View attachment 353890

Jay.

Is that Brobs?

 

[Kobold]

Is that Brobs?

He is vegan so…maybe.

 

[Infantry23]

Ecclesiastical/liturgical Latin and Classical Latin are not the same thing, though granted, they are similar enough.

But my point was Latin has never been spoken in America as lingua franca. If not for the Catholic Church it would be pretty much unknown other than in older texts.

Jay.

I'm all for you hitting back, because it's more fun that way. However, perhaps it's my rudimentary education or the fact that you speak English and I speak American, but I'm struggling to understand your point about Latin in the U.S. in particular, and what that has to do with anything, in general.