Argumentum ad fastidium - https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_fastidiumI always cringe when I see links to the definitions of logical fallacies…
Perhaps?
Argumentum ad fastidium - https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_fastidiumI always cringe when I see links to the definitions of logical fallacies…
In @Andriko 's defense, expecting people to discuss "science" these days without any political commentary at all is actually ridiculous IMO. Science in so many areas, in so many ways, has become such a corrupted political weapon that it's difficult in the extreme to discuss it without addressing the political issues involved.That's a pretty political statement. It's certainly not about science.
I strongly agree with most of this. ^The current situation is actually much worse than what Eisenhower warned of...it's not just that "public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite" ... we're way beyond that ... it's now at the point where science itself has become the captive of a financial elite who are above the law and are corrupting the scientific process to use as a way of manipulating public perception and justifying their agendas.
I wrote a whole book in response to this, to be sensitive to nuance.I strongly agree with most of this. ^
That's part of the point I was making above. I don't understand the knee-jerk mistrust of science and scientists per se when it's obviously the financial sector that the (U.S.) government is beholden to. To what extent experimental physics is beholden to the financial sector is debatable.
Whenever someone is paying you to do something, you obviously need to take their interests and desires into consideration. That seems blindingly obvious. What's not obvious is that there's some cabal of elite scientists motivated by a secret agenda to control peoples lives and minds. I know a lot of people believe these things. Maybe that's because their lives and minds are being controlled by certain media outlets or internet trolls.
When the physicists and engineers are designing their systems and experiments — which might serve to advance human knowledge — do you really think their end goal is some kind of social control and exploitation? That seems kind of paranoid to me. It's the same with governments and corporations. Most people are self motivated, this is true, but not psychopathic. If things are bad, it has more to do with incompetence, laziness, inertia etc, than maliciousness. That's what I believe. Now, I lived with a sociopath once in a small cabin onboard a ship for 4 months. So, I know there are people out there who are motivated to ruin people's lives given the opportunity...because it's fun for them. A little bit of evil can have a way of trumping the benevolence of a mass of people. I don't think that's the general rule in society though.
Tell that to those that illegally dumped radioactive waste in a few sites in Kentucky.
Not at all, been going on for decades at several sites. Here's one of the more recent ones though I think another was discovered last year.Just more conspiracies no doubt.
A Kentucky Town’s Struggle with Illegally Dumped Radioactive Waste - https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/kentucky-towns-illegally-dumped-radioactive-waste/Just more conspiracies no doubt. No way “they” would do something like that, this is America after all…
It's not a conspiracy, but it is a red herring in a discussion about nuclear fusion.
it isn't nuclear physicists dumping radioactive waste
OK. Is that an analogy? I'm pretty dense. I don't follow exactly what your response has to do with what I said. Maybe I should read your book?We have in computer security: "Everyone is not out to get you, but someone is."
Many security mechanisms stop working once the right breach is accomplished.
Agreed.Love scientific method, and statistics. Hate those that tell 1/2 truths and use science and statistics to control others.
I would count myself the exact opposite of that.Though I'm naturally extremely trusting, I have to force myself to be skeptical.
Again, could you elaborate? I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly. It sounds like you're saying it's irresponsible or potentially destructive to "exercise influence" in "subjects" beyond those you limit yourself to. Is that meant to be prescriptive?I've seen a lot of destruction due to blind-trust so I try to question, because I am responsible in any subject where I am going to exercise influence. It is a lot of work, so I have to limit the subjects I exercise influence in.
That is my fault, in my attempt for brevity I abandoned too much clarification.Again, could you elaborate? I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly.
Boy you guys got hit bad. It's been snowing for days here, but we only experienced the Northern edge of this storm. Merry Christmas and happy shovelling!That is my fault, in my attempt for brevity I abandoned too much clarification.
I'd love to elaborate, but don't have the time right now.
I love to tease out these sorts of things, but they do have a tendency to lead to "spicy conversation". Rather than get this thread locked I might try to elaborate in a PM.
Presently I have a blizzard to fight.
I'll leave the discussion here with a link to a Scientist who makes the case I am trying to make in a much more sophisticated way with reference to Quantum Computing (I too can make appeals to authority!).
She also has similar videos on Fusion which I would recommend, and she is a fusion supporter.
First I must say it's difficult to debate with someone who has such an inspiring signature quote.I strongly agree with most of this. ^
That's part of the point I was making above. I don't understand the knee-jerk mistrust of science and scientists per se when it's obviously the financial sector that the (U.S.) government is beholden to. To what extent experimental physics is beholden to the financial sector is debatable.
Whenever someone is paying you to do something, you obviously need to take their interests and desires into consideration. That seems blindingly obvious. What's not obvious is that there's some cabal of elite scientists motivated by a secret agenda to control peoples lives and minds. I know a lot of people believe these things. Maybe that's because their lives and minds are being controlled by certain media outlets or internet trolls.
When the physicists and engineers are designing their systems and experiments — which might serve to advance human knowledge — do you really think their end goal is some kind of social control and exploitation? That seems kind of paranoid to me. It's the same with governments and corporations. Most people are self motivated, this is true, but not psychopathic. If things are bad, it has more to do with incompetence, laziness, inertia etc, than maliciousness. That's what I believe. Now, I lived with a sociopath once in a small cabin onboard a ship for 4 months. So, I know there are people out there who are motivated to ruin people's lives given the opportunity...because it's fun for them. A little bit of evil can have a way of trumping the benevolence of a mass of people. I don't think that's the general rule in society though.
Not at all, been going on for decades at several sites. Here's one of the more recent ones though I think another was discovered last year.
Nuclear waste dumped illegally in Ky.
Kentucky officials this week are warning all landfills to be on the lookout for illegal low level nuclear waste.www.courier-journal.com
I found this thread interesting, but it's hardly a debate. It's more like shadow boxing blindfolded. Many of the members here like to throw political jabs without talking about politics, which is fine as far as I'm concerned. The forum rules aren't my idea, and I'm not appealing to authority in any sense to try to defend an argument, because I wasn't making any argument in the OP. I was just saying, "Hey guys, look at this! Isn't science cool?"First I must say it's difficult to debate with someone who has such an inspiring signature quote.
Maybe I'm just naive, but I also don't live in the U.S., [or the UK] where it seems as though everything is HIGHLY politicised. I watch a lot of U.S. news because I like to stay informed and, sometimes, entertained and/or aghast — but in Canada, politics tends to be a fair bit more boring and doesn't often enter into conversation. I don't know anyone who sits around talking about the Prime Minister and his policies. I'm not in those circles anymore. You guys should realize that people on this forum might have very different Overton windows. The word "politics" doesn't have a single definition. It is possible to talk about science, technology, climate and other topics without it degenerating into a political food fight, just maybe not where you live or from inside your particular bubble.expecting people to discuss "science" these days without any political commentary at all is actually ridiculous IMO. Science in so many areas, in so many ways, has become such a corrupted political weapon that it's difficult in the extreme to discuss it without addressing the political issues involved.
This seems to be a comment on the way bureaucracies work? You could elaborate on this I suppose, and whether or not you're speaking from first hand experience. I saw exactly what you're describing when I was in the military. I learned how in certain areas, the exactly most incompetent individuals would get promoted, and people who were intelligent and highly competent would get passed over, or even drummed out of their job. Happens all the time. I imagine this sort of problem permeates any institution where there's a hierarchy. The rank structure in the military amplifies it. I just wanted to mention, what you're saying rings very true in my experience. The problem is, I don't know why you're saying it, or where it's coming from.there are many honest scientists all over the world who have not sold out and remain committed to upholding the integrity of the scientific process in any given discipline. And many of them have paid a high personal price for this...they are usually black-balled in one way or another...or worse.
I'm not optimistic about what fusion power in the future is likely to be used for, or who is going to be in control of it, but it's just like any other genie once it's out of the bottle. Secrets don't stay secret forever. And sometimes military technology slips its bounds and ends up permeating society, like the internet. If you really think there are an "elite" who are motivated by controlling people and keeping them struggling and fearful, I don't sympathise with that worldview, because at best it's only partially true. There is nobody steering this ship. There's no cabal. Humans aren't that smart. We're all part of the rank and file.The last thing these "elite" want is for the general public to have efficient, inexpensive clean energy. They can't control people that way. They want the public struggling and fearful...that's how you keep them in line. So if fusion does work, I wouldn't expect it to be made easily available to the public.
Any conspiracy large enough to work, somebody would spill the beans, you know?