Nuclear Fusion

Log in

SmokingPipes.com Updates

Watch for Updates Twice a Week

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

PipesMagazine Approved Sponsor

This is a cool breakthrough but as has been mentioned scalability is an issue for now. Once scaled the next is output. Will there be enough hydrogen to yield what is needed long term? H2 is a limited resource and much of it comes from water at this time. (note you can get it from hydrocarbons but then we are still drilling oil) Once hydrogen is converted to helium, a noble gas, it's extremely stable - ie you can't go back...well you can but it's a net negative. How much water are we willing to consume to make Hydrogen? I was always against ethanol from corn as fuel - ie turning food to fuel when people are starving. Turning water to fuel seems to be to be a slippery slope in the long term and the ramifications should be contemplated by people smarter than I but sadly consequences are rarely considered when our species goes rushing in to fill their pockets. I am a PhD chemist with 30 years in the industry and I have seen a lot of recklessness in the world of greed and our decendants will pay the price if we are not careful.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,960
14,356
Humansville Missouri
Psalm 2 lays the beans out pretty clearly. And there have been a number of books written, detailing the plans in the words of the planners. It is simply a matter of whether one takes the time to review, and takes “them” at their word.
I was weaned on the Bible, and it’s the guide of my faith in things unseen.

But science has already provided over a hundred nuclear fission plants in America.

ECCLESIASTES 1​

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.



The reactor ITER is building exceeds the size of the Temple of Solomon.


And in time, not one stone of it will be left on top of the other.

One blessing of nuclear fusion, is there won’t be radioactive waste for a million years.
 

beargreasediet

Can't Leave
Nov 23, 2021
302
2,503
The Prairie
I was weaned on the Bible, and it’s the guide of my faith in things unseen.

But science has already provided over a hundred nuclear fission plants in America.

ECCLESIASTES 1​

The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.



The reactor ITER is building exceeds the size of the Temple of Solomon.


And in time, not one stone of it will be left on top of the other.

One blessing of nuclear fusion, is there won’t be radioactive waste for a million years.


FTR - think science is pretty nifty. I’m not against the utilization of current fission technology (try and melt steel with a windmill…) only against the corruption and ineptitude which has resulted in serious accidents. So I certainly don’t have a problem with the research into fusion, or some of the other research involving technologies which would obsolete fusion if they can be brought online (pie in the sky or not is a matter of information and opinion).

That said I have grave concerns about the usage of technology. Lack of technology is not the source of the worlds problems; what ails mankind will not be fixed by science, quite the contrary.
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
This is a cool breakthrough but as has been mentioned scalability is an issue for now. Once scaled the next is output. Will there be enough hydrogen to yield what is needed long term? H2 is a limited resource and much of it comes from water at this time. (note you can get it from hydrocarbons but then we are still drilling oil) Once hydrogen is converted to helium, a noble gas, it's extremely stable - ie you can't go back...well you can but it's a net negative. How much water are we willing to consume to make Hydrogen? I was always against ethanol from corn as fuel - ie turning food to fuel when people are starving. Turning water to fuel seems to be to be a slippery slope in the long term and the ramifications should be contemplated by people smarter than I but sadly consequences are rarely considered when our species goes rushing in to fill their pockets. I am a PhD chemist with 30 years in the industry and I have seen a lot of recklessness in the world of greed and our decendants will pay the price if we are not careful.
Yes. If this civilisation is going to create enough energy to keep going, one way or another it seems inevitable we're going to deplete some resource. Deuterium is super plentiful though. That's why you can buy it very cheaply. The amount of fuel in, relative to the theoretical energy out, is vanishingly small. Then, the reactors need to use a Lithium blanket to breed Tritium which is fed back into the reaction. Lithium is a finite resource, but it's fairly plentiful. These are all problems. The question is, are they worse problems than the ones caused by our current energy system: nuclear waste, CO2, methane, ocean acidification etc. etc. Well...anyway, the engineers and physicist working on the problem would have us believe fusion energy is the way forward. It seems to make sense. Maybe we'll all be worm food once the truth is known. I find it an interesting topic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: beargreasediet
Deuterium is super plentiful though. That's why you can buy it very cheaply.
Correct - but it comes from water - H2O>D2O>T2O - it's all water. the ocean is ~ 0.02% D2O - so there is tons of it. I am not saying or implying we not exploit fusion - we absolutely should but we need to weigh the consequences given how much we now know about running headlong into technology. I am a technologist and made a living on tech. There is however a solution to our energy problem but it will never happen. If we as a species only took what we "needed" there would be plenty to go around for eons :) - peace

PS - Eddie says it all in this song:

 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
Correct - but it comes from water - H2O>D2O>T2O - it's all water. the ocean is ~ 0.02% D2O - so there is tons of it. I am not saying or implying we not exploit fusion - we absolutely should but we need to weigh the consequences given how much we now know about running headlong into technology. I am a technologist and made a living on tech. There is however a solution to our energy problem but it will never happen. If we as a species only took what we "needed" there would be plenty to go around for eons :) - peace

PS - Eddie says it all in this song:

Agreed. I don't think overpopulation is the problem. It's overconsumption by the minority. The other 7 billion don't have much and don't consume much. Now hold my beer while I go browse SP for my next briar. My collection doesn't feel complete yet.
 

Briar Lee

Lifer
Sep 4, 2021
4,960
14,356
Humansville Missouri
My grandfather was enthused over using seawater to power nuclear fusion plants over fifty years ago.

There’s millions and millions of years of seawater, you know?

But wouldn’t the waste of burning seawater produce fresh water?

Or maybe hydrogen and oxygen?

I’d like to know, because it doesn’t sound like a bad problem to have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winnipeger

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
My grandfather was enthused over using seawater to power nuclear fusion plants over fifty years ago.

There’s millions and millions of years of seawater, you know?

But wouldn’t the waste of burning seawater produce fresh water?

Or maybe hydrogen and oxygen?

I’d like to know, because it doesn’t sound like a bad problem to have.
How is it that humanity has survived the nuclear age thus far? If we don't nuke ourselves back to the stone age, and civilization keeps going, the power output of fusion devices can conceivably increase exponentially. We can have man-made suns, orbiting the earth, and mine asteroids for whatever we need. We can shoot our radioactive waste into the sun, not to mention feeding everyone on the planet ten times over and wiping out diseases of all kinds. That's the techno-optimist view. The odds are stacked against us not nuking ourselves into oblivion, but that's been the case for around 70 years, and yet, here we are. How is that possible?
 
  • Like
Reactions: aspiring_sage

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
10,050
16,108
I watch a lot of U.S. news because I like to stay informed
Well, I don't watch any "news" on TV (I assume that's what you're referring to there) and IMO most of it will give you a very distorted view of reality. It is mostly propaganda masquerading as journalism...especially when it comes to any major stories or issues. It is almost all sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry which accounts for the extreme bias in any and all types of medical science "reporting" you will get from them.

It is possible to talk about science, technology, climate and other topics without it degenerating into a political food fight
Yes, of course it is. Who said anything about food fighting? I only said the political aspect of how science operates has become unavoidable...IMO.

This seems to be a comment on the way bureaucracies work? You could elaborate on this I suppose, and whether or not you're speaking from first hand experience. I saw exactly what you're describing when I was in the military. I learned how in certain areas, the exactly most incompetent individuals would get promoted, and people who were intelligent and highly competent would get passed over, or even drummed out of their job. Happens all the time. I imagine this sort of problem permeates any institution where there's a hierarchy. The rank structure in the military amplifies it. I just wanted to mention, what you're saying rings very true in my experience. The problem is, I don't know why you're saying it, or where it's coming from.

No, I'm not speaking from first hand experience, just from years of reading and listening to interviews with scientists. Too much to get into here, but in a nutshell, in all or nearly all areas of the modern scientific "establishment" there is an orthodoxy that exerts much control over what gets funded and/or published and what's in the textbooks.

Of course this is supposedly done to safeguard the integrity of the scientific process, but there has been an abundance of evidence over the years that this is often not the case and it seems to keep getting worse. Much of the "orthodox" views do not hold up to scrutiny, and a lot of what they are excluding is valid data but when it challenges the dogma that they claim is "settled science" it is typically ignored or censored.

If you really think there are an "elite" who are motivated by controlling people and keeping them struggling and fearful, I don't sympathise with that worldview, because at best it's only partially true. There is nobody steering this ship. There's no cabal. Humans aren't that smart. We're all part of the rank and file.

You are in the majority with that view...so I'm well used to it. We can just agree to disagree. I'll just say that there are countless books and white papers and interviews challenging your perspective. The comment that was made here about secrets can't be kept because people would talk is mostly true...but the thing is, people have been talking, and writing, for decades on these subjects...much of the "secrets" have not been kept...it's just that most people dismiss them out of hand because it doesn't fit their world view. Good investigative reporting is critical...but you won't find it anywhere in the big corporate news anymore.

I always say the search for truth is mostly a process of elimination...it's usually easier to determine what is not true than what is...especially if you're an "ordinary" citizen and don't have investigative powers or resources. Most "official" narratives on major subjects are so full of holes and contradictions and impossibilities it's laughable...acknowledging that is the first step.

A final comment is that it's amusing to me how people react to anything they perceive to be "conspiracy theory". They seem to think those are magic words that can be used as an immediate blanket dismissal of any information. As Paul Simon said, "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest". Conspiracies are nothing more than organized crime...and these OC networks operate both within and atop governments and corporations...always have and always will...this is not theory...this has been well documented throughout history.
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
Well, I don't watch any "news" on TV (I assume that's what you're referring to there) and IMO most of it will give you a very distorted view of reality. It is mostly propaganda masquerading as journalism...especially when it comes to any major stories or issues. It is almost all sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry which accounts for the extreme bias in any and all types of medical science "reporting" you will get from them.


Yes, of course it is. Who said anything about food fighting? I only said the political aspect of how science operates has become unavoidable...IMO.



No, I'm not speaking from first hand experience, just from years of reading and listening to interviews with scientists. Too much to get into here, but in a nutshell, in all or nearly all areas of the modern scientific "establishment" there is an orthodoxy that exerts much control over what gets funded and/or published and what's in the textbooks.

Of course this is supposedly done to safeguard the integrity of the scientific process, but there has been an abundance of evidence over the years that this is often not the case and it seems to keep getting worse. Much of the "orthodox" views do not hold up to scrutiny, and a lot of what they are excluding is valid data but when it challenges the dogma that they claim is "settled science" it is typically ignored or censored.



You are in the majority with that view...so I'm well used to it. We can just agree to disagree. I'll just say that there are countless books and white papers and interviews challenging your perspective. The comment that was made here about secrets can't be kept because people would talk is mostly true...but the thing is, people have been talking, and writing, for decades on these subjects...much of the "secrets" have not been kept...it's just that most people dismiss them out of hand because it doesn't fit their world view. Good investigative reporting is critical...but you won't find it anywhere in the big corporate news anymore.

I always say the search for truth is mostly a process of elimination...it's usually easier to determine what is not true than what is...especially if you're an "ordinary" citizen and don't have investigative powers or resources. Most "official" narratives on major subjects are so full of holes and contradictions and impossibilities it's laughable...acknowledging that is the first step.

A final comment is that it's amusing to me how people react to anything they perceive to be "conspiracy theory". They seem to think those are magic words that can be used as an immediate blanket dismissal of any information. As Paul Simon said, "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest". Conspiracies are nothing more than organized crime...and these OC networks operate both within and atop governments and corporations...always have and always will...this is not theory...this has been well documented throughout history.
I think this discussion has run its course. I’ve reached this same stage in conversation with people before. You said mine is the majority view, but I’m not sure if that’s the case. I feel like a lonely voice in the wilderness sometimes.

I would just ask, from what privileged vantage point do you criticize the media? You draw conclusions based on your exposure to some part of the information ecosystem. Is there some pure domain, free of self-interested actors? For my part, I don’t watch NFL football, and I have no opinion on it. I’m sure it exists to sell advertising, but I wouldn’t be so hubristic as to draw conclusions about its content without observing it for myself. Yet you say you don’t watch TV news, and it’s all corrupt etc etc. I’m very sceptical of opinions in general, including my own, because I can only ever have access to partial information. This is true for every human. So I find it’s not a good idea to paint any domain of society with too broad a brush. FYI, I can watch PBS Newshour or NBC Nightly News without having my brain corrupted and immediately running out to buy Viagra. I also have access to CBC, BBC World, Al Jazeera, NPR, RT, The Guardian, The Atlantic, etc. etc. Anyway, we have very different perspectives. I’m a Canadian and when I watch American media, it’s from the outside looking in. In Canada, pharmaceutical companies aren’t allowed to market their products directly to the public. Only doctors are allowed to do that. And not TV doctors. Real doctors. In America, you have more freedom I suppose. That’s a double edged sword, it would seem.

I also listen to Podcasts. A good one is “Decoding the Gurus”, where they at least try to cut through all the bullshit. I’m drawn to conspiracy theories and broad social critiques just like anyone else. It’s nice to think there’s a coherent way of explaining and understanding what the fuck is going on, or that at least someone (obviously way smarter than me) has it all figured out. There are so many problems including the gerontocracy, the oligarchy, the replication crisis in science, “credentialing” in higher education, and just generally the erosion of institutions and social cohesion. Rupert Sheldrake claims the speed of light is not a constant and physicist have been covering up that fact for decades! I don’t doubt it. There are definitely conspiracies out there, and corruption of all kinds. But a conspiracy theory isn’t the same thing as a conspiracy, any more than an opinion is the same thing as a fact.
 

brian64

Lifer
Jan 31, 2011
10,050
16,108
I think this discussion has run its course. I’ve reached this same stage in conversation with people before. You said mine is the majority view, but I’m not sure if that’s the case. I feel like a lonely voice in the wilderness sometimes.

I would just ask, from what privileged vantage point do you criticize the media? You draw conclusions based on your exposure to some part of the information ecosystem. Is there some pure domain, free of self-interested actors? For my part, I don’t watch NFL football, and I have no opinion on it. I’m sure it exists to sell advertising, but I wouldn’t be so hubristic as to draw conclusions about its content without observing it for myself. Yet you say you don’t watch TV news, and it’s all corrupt etc etc. I’m very sceptical of opinions in general, including my own, because I can only ever have access to partial information. This is true for every human. So I find it’s not a good idea to paint any domain of society with too broad a brush. FYI, I can watch PBS Newshour or NBC Nightly News without having my brain corrupted and immediately running out to buy Viagra. I also have access to CBC, BBC World, Al Jazeera, NPR, RT, The Guardian, The Atlantic, etc. etc. Anyway, we have very different perspectives. I’m a Canadian and when I watch American media, it’s from the outside looking in. In Canada, pharmaceutical companies aren’t allowed to market their products directly to the public. Only doctors are allowed to do that. And not TV doctors. Real doctors. In America, you have more freedom I suppose. That’s a double edged sword, it would seem.

I also listen to Podcasts. A good one is “Decoding the Gurus”, where they at least try to cut through all the bullshit. I’m drawn to conspiracy theories and broad social critiques just like anyone else. It’s nice to think there’s a coherent way of explaining and understanding what the fuck is going on, or that at least someone (obviously way smarter than me) has it all figured out. There are so many problems including the gerontocracy, the oligarchy, the replication crisis in science, “credentialing” in higher education, and just generally the erosion of institutions and social cohesion. Rupert Sheldrake claims the speed of light is not a constant and physicist have been covering up that fact for decades! I don’t doubt it. There are definitely conspiracies out there, and corruption of all kinds. But a conspiracy theory isn’t the same thing as a conspiracy, any more than an opinion is the same thing as a fact.
Privileged vantage point? LOL ... I just have my opinions like everyone else based on how I process information. I didn't say it was "all corrupt"...I said it's "mostly propaganda". One thing you have to understand is my perspective on things right now evolved over decades. I said I don't watch TV news now...I didn't say I never did. Also I do see snippets of it and it tends to invoke nausea so I have to turn it off. Drug companies here also used to be prohibited from marketing directly to the public...no longer. The big corporate media here is VERY different from what it was decades ago. It has been consolidated down to about 5 corporations I believe it is now that own and operate all of it.

The corporations may have more freedom here...not necessarily the people.

The issue is conflict of interest...that's a phrase we don't hear much any more these days...just like antitrust...those concepts seem to have disappeared here. There are journalists who are now independent who tell their stories of what happened to them in the "MSM" when they tried to do honest reporting on the drug industry. You won't hear their stories on TV.

Anyway, honestly I could write pages attempting to articulate my view on all of these things and point to all kinds of books, articles, essays, interviews, etc. But not only do I not have time for it, but it is a discussion that is not allowed here. But it is my sincere opinion that it would be an exercise in futility anyway. Human nature is such that you have to come to your own conclusions. As a line in the Kansas song Hopelessly Human says, "When each word is read, would you know the difference if nothing was said?" I'm not going to change your mind about anything, and you're not going to change mine either. Good luck on your journey!
 

olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,175
15,013
The Arm of Orion
Yes, of course it is. Who said anything about food fighting? I only said the political aspect of how science operates has become unavoidable...IMO.
Not just your opinion: it's a FACT one learns in the first class of a varsity course on urban planning: that everything IS political: it HAS to be, since it all involves and carries with it the making of decisions on implementation and regulation.
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
Privileged vantage point? LOL ... I just have my opinions like everyone else based on how I process information. I didn't say it was "all corrupt"...I said it's "mostly propaganda". One thing you have to understand is my perspective on things right now evolved over decades. I said I don't watch TV news now...I didn't say I never did. Also I do see snippets of it and it tends to invoke nausea so I have to turn it off. Drug companies here also used to be prohibited from marketing directly to the public...no longer. The big corporate media here is VERY different from what it was decades ago. It has been consolidated down to about 5 corporations I believe it is now that own and operate all of it.

The corporations may have more freedom here...not necessarily the people.

The issue is conflict of interest...that's a phrase we don't hear much any more these days...just like antitrust...those concepts seem to have disappeared here. There are journalists who are now independent who tell their stories of what happened to them in the "MSM" when they tried to do honest reporting on the drug industry. You won't hear their stories on TV.

Anyway, honestly I could write pages attempting to articulate my view on all of these things and point to all kinds of books, articles, essays, interviews, etc. But not only do I not have time for it, but it is a discussion that is not allowed here. But it is my sincere opinion that it would be an exercise in futility anyway. Human nature is such that you have to come to your own conclusions. As a line in the Kansas song Hopelessly Human says, "When each word is read, would you know the difference if nothing was said?" I'm not going to change your mind about anything, and you're not going to change mine either. Good luck on your journey!
Agreed.
 

olkofri

Lifer
Sep 9, 2017
8,175
15,013
The Arm of Orion
No, I'm not speaking from first hand experience, just from years of reading and listening to interviews with scientists. Too much to get into here, but in a nutshell, in all or nearly all areas of the modern scientific "establishment" there is an orthodoxy that exerts much control over what gets funded and/or published and what's in the textbooks.

Of course this is supposedly done to safeguard the integrity of the scientific process, but there has been an abundance of evidence over the years that this is often not the case and it seems to keep getting worse. Much of the "orthodox" views do not hold up to scrutiny, and a lot of what they are excluding is valid data but when it challenges the dogma that they claim is "settled science" it is typically ignored or censored.
On this I do have personal experience during my time in the varsity: science by research grants... peer review being now pal review... politicians of a certain stripe buying out professors... research papers with cooked up results... I could go on and on.

The bottom line is that scientists, with very few exceptions, are not rich themselves and thus, they require grants in order to do research, and in the present university milieu the institutions' REGULATIONS (oh no, it's now POO-litical!! 😱 ) require them to do research in order to stay employed—this is one reason why so many profs no longer have time for their students and their lectures are subpar: because most of their time is consumed by writing papers and they must employ teaching assistants. Under this premise, scientists cannot report research results that will offend or make their grant-givers look bad. If the results have to be cooked, so be it, after all WHO is really gonna read the paper beyond the abstract??
 

Winnipeger

Lifer
Sep 9, 2022
1,288
9,693
Winnipeg
If we were actually talking about what we're talking about, we'd probably find more we agree on than not. It's just hard to tell. I think we do have different perspectives, which is inevitable, but we can all see how "science", the "media" and "higher learning" are all in a state of decline. Maybe we just disagree on the margins about how dire the situation is. I've come full circle from complete pessimism to cautious optimism over the past 2 decades, mainly because, we're still here, we haven't destroyed ourselves, and I'm getting older. I never really thought I would (get much older) when I was younger. Everything changes over time. This has wandered far from what the OP was about, but thanks for playing along.