My Estervals Order Was Sent By USPS To Customs And Has been Shipped Back To Germany

[paulfg]

I must admit if I was in Estervals shoes I would be thinking it is too much trouble to ship to USA, if this is happening a lot.
I am very surprised at there dealing with Jesse as I have always found them first class but then I am in Europe and the packages have arrived without problems.
But as I stated above this is not a customs issue but USPS problem as they are shown as having cleared customs and arrived a a USPS facility

 

[lawdawg]

It's an interesting problem. There's a lot of speculation in this thread, but the general consensus seems to be that it's the USPS's fault: that Esterval ships its packages properly and that the USPS claim that this is either an "improperly addressed" issue or a Customs issue is false.

Assuming that's the case I'm not sure why Esterval would ever take responsibility for packages which go astray. They don't run the U.S. post office (maybe they should), and it's unclear why they would essentially indemnify customers for failures of third parties beyond their control. The only reasons for Esterval to compensate anyone for a USPS screw-up is general kindness, or as a way of continuing to encourage orders from the U.S. In either case there's a limit to the cost they should incur to cover someone else's mistakes. I have no idea how important U.S. orders are to them, but unless the number is a measurable line on their income statement it wouldn't surprise me if they eventually said "screw it, this is more trouble than it's worth." This would hardly be unprecedented; think of eBay sellers or buyers who won't sell to or buy from certain countries. And now perhaps the U.S. gets added to that rarified company.

The obvious answer of course is insurance, but it would have to be general enough to cover any possible loss (i.e. not just lost packages, but packages that aren't delivered for any reason); and frankly I doubt that such insurance is available. And if by some miracle it is, it'd be too expensive relative to the purchase price. And if by some further miracle it's not, the policies would be withdrawn after a number of claims.

As for getting your money back from Chase, my experience has been different. Decades ago cardholders, especially of status T&E cards like Amex or Diners, could count on support in the case of a dispute with a vendor. In my personal experience those days are long, long gone. You can still initiate a dispute, but the presumption of right now favors the seller. And "proving" a case is tougher than ever since many if not most transactions don't involve physical presentation of a card and the creation of a signature for each purchase. That's not to say that charges can't be successfully challenged, just that I think it's tougher to prevail today than it was in years gone by. I'd be interested in hearing how this turns out, although I know it'll take weeks or months to resolve.

Conversely, why should a purchaser accept liability for the delivery of a product when it is the seller (shipper) who is in the superior position to ensure proper delivery?

I don’t mean to say that your view is unreasonable at all, but this is an issue which has come up in business in many occasions (so many times that there are written laws and court opinions on this issue), and there are two sides to the story. To split hairs, legally speaking, liability for delivery depends on whether any given contract is a shipping contract or a destination contract - basically, whether the sellers obligation ends upon shipment or upon delivery.

The general law under the Uniform Commercial Code in the U.S. is that if an agreement between the parties calls for delivery at a specific destination, then the contract is a destination contract, and the seller is obligated to deliver the goods to the location specified. Of course this is a simplified explanation just going from memory, and there are probably numerous factors to determine how the law should be applied, but based on what we know, this looks like it could very well be a destination contract.

 

[jguss]

My guess is the legal issues, including jurisdiction and governing law, are thorny. But whether they are or aren’t in practice is irrelevant since litigation is unrealistic. The pragmatic question is will buyers buy and will sellers sell when delivery becomes uncertain. From the seller’s perspective at some point the incremental margin from U.S. orders will not be worth the hassle. Anyone who has run a business learns that there are some orders you’re better off turning down.

 

[rmpeeps]

Here's an update.

I contacted Esterval's to apprise them of the situation.

This is their response:
View attachment 40199
In other words, the package is in Customs in Germany in three days, not in six months. They will bill me for it being in Customs. Like hell I will pay it. After 6 weeks the package will be destroyed. Essentially it's my problem.

I wrote them back to tell them that I did not ask for the package to be returned and that I never received it. They are the shipper, and according to the USPS, the package was "insufficiently addressed". I also told them that as they are the shipper it's their responsibility to keep records of their shipments and that any fees are also their responsibility.

After that I contacted my credit card company and filed a dispute.

At this point, my account has been credited while an investigation is carried out by Chase. So for the moment it is Esterval's problem, though the decision could go against me.

There is no chance in hell that I will ever order anything from Estervals again.

You should be aware of the risks involved in ordering from Estervals.

Jesse,
PM me what the order consisted of; if I have it, it’s yours.
I was fortunate with a few orders and more than willing to pass along to a brother.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

that has nothing to do with customs and everything to do with USPS incompetence

I sent a pipe to a member here a few months ago and it bounced around his locality being returned to a distrubution office 3 times.Eventually the member had to go and collect it as he was told the address was incorrect.
Guess what the address was 100% correct and printed in large letters

That may very well be true. However, Estervals chose to use the DHL and USPS combo, not Jesse. And before you place all the blame on USPS, it's clear that 95% or more of the one to three month lead time from Estervals dock to the USA customer's door is consumed by DHL and Estervals, not USPS. If Estervals cannot create a reasonably prompt and reliable process for shipping their products to the USA, they should not accept orders from USA customers. Further, while the pandemic has slowed shipments from Europe, Estervals shipments were painfully slow before. They just went from really bad to worse is all.

The reality is, Estervals sucks at logistics. Even worse, now they're refusing to be accountable for it. I can't see how it's reasonable to blame USPS when out of a $300 order, they may get $5 of it.

 

[lawdawg]

My guess is the legal issues, including jurisdiction and governing law, are thorny. But whether they are or aren’t in practice is irrelevant since litigation is unrealistic. The pragmatic question is will buyers buy and will sellers sell when delivery becomes uncertain. From the seller’s perspective at some point the incremental margin from U.S. orders will not be worth the hassle. Anyone who has run a business learns that there are some orders you’re better off turning down.

Of course. I was citing the law more for purposes of considering what might be fair under the circumstances. That is indeed the purpose of the law after all, as imperfect as it may be.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

My guess is the legal issues, including jurisdiction and governing law, are thorny. But whether they are or aren’t in practice is irrelevant since litigation is unrealistic. The pragmatic question is will buyers buy and will sellers sell when delivery becomes uncertain. From the seller’s perspective at some point the incremental margin from U.S. orders will not be worth the hassle. Anyone who has run a business learns that there are some orders you’re better off turning down.

Another alternative is to charged enough money for the shipping service that it is reasonably fast and guaranteed. If people don't wish to pay the price, so be it.

 

[paulfg]

. I can't see how it's reasonable to blame USPS when out of a $300 order, they may get $5 of it.

because without USPS incompetance the order would be delivered ,all be it slowly.
I agree maybe Estervals could do something to speed up the time scale (different carrier maybe) but the no delivery/return rests firmly with USPS

 

[goldenmole]

I just reached out to the Estervals Team to make them aware that a significant part of their US customers is having this discussion here.. If I get any response I will let you know. On the other hand: more Directors Cut for me

 

[3rdguy]

If my order was lost like this and no refund for lost product,I could not order again from them and take the risk.
If I was Esterval’s and had to pay out a few times for this I would cease shipping to the U.S.
I will be surprised if your credit card covers the expense.

Customer’s may want to look into having UPS pick up their order directly from Esterval’s and bypass the DHL, USPS circus.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

If my order was lost like this and no refund for lost product,I could not order again from them and take the risk.
If I was Esterval’s and had to pay out a few times for this I would cease shipping to the U.S.
I will be surprised if your credit card covers the expense.

Customer’s may want to look into having UPS pick up their order directly from Esterval’s and bypass the DHL, USPS circus.

I think if you're going to be a viable internet retailer, you factor a certain % of losses in shipping into your pricing. If there is a problem with SP or TP shipments, they make good on it very promptly. Why would Estevals be any different?

I have been trying to place an order with Estervals and they keep declining my credit card, the same one that's been accepted for at least half a dozen orders. I checked, plenty of money in the account. I contact their customer service, the moron who responded said it must be the format I entered the CC expiration date in, European is different. I responded by saying how that's possible when that data entry is a drop down? Then the same guy insisted I was entering the number wrong. I said really, 10 times? Arrogant German bullshit.

 

[BROBS]

I think if you're going to be a viable internet retailer, you factor a certain % of losses in shipping into your pricing. If there is a problem with SP or TP shipments, they make good on it very promptly. Why would Estevals be any different?

I have been trying to place an order with Estervals and they keep declining my credit card, the same one that's been accepted for at least half a dozen orders. I checked, plenty of money in the account. I contact their customer service, the moron who responded said it must be the format I entered the CC expiration date in, European is different. I responded by saying how that's possible when that data entry is a drop down? Then the same guy insisted I was entering the number wrong. I said really, 10 times? Arrogant German bullshit.

It’s your bank. Did you contact your bank and tell them your we’re placing a German order?

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

It’s your bank. Did you contact your bank and tell them your we’re placing a German order?

No. They approved it multiple times before. I'm glad now it was declined, I won't get screwed by Estervals. You also apparently missed my point, that being the stupidity and crappy attitude of the Estervals customer service rep.

 

[paulfg]

It’s your bank. Did you contact your bank and tell them your we’re placing a German order?

Yes i believe someone on here went through this situation a little while ago and it was the banks anti fraud software rejecting the payment.Once the bank was aware that a payment to an abroad account was going to be made it went through OK

 

[paulfg]

No. They approved it multiple times before. I'm glad now it was declined, I won't get screwed by Estervals.

well you stated above you were done so I was surprised to read you had attempted to order from them
never mind no more HU tobaccos for you more for me

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

well you stated above you were done so I was surprised to read you had attempted to order from them
never mind no more HU tobaccos for you more for me

I tried to order last week. I said I was done last night when I read about how they're screwing Jesse.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Ugh, this sucks. Is there another source for 1lb boxes of Capstan?

 

[pappymac]

This problem seems to be completely random and once the package clears U.S. Customs, it seems to be a USPS problem.

I placed an order on May 29. It took four weeks for the package to get to U.S. Customs from Germany. I did some research and found out that instead of the package being sent air cargo, it was placed into a container with other packages and sent by sea. (At least, that's what I was told.) The reason it took so long was DHL waited until the container was full before they put it on the cargo ship. Once it got to New York, the container had to be offloaded and the packages transferred to Customs.

My package was received by Customs on July 30th and was cleared. Tracking showed it being received by the USPS later that same day. From there, tracking showed that USPS had the package for shipping to final destination. On Friday, July 3, tracking still showed the package to be in New York. It arrived on my doorstep at 2:00 pm that afternoon.

I definitely believe the main problem is with USPS.

 

[BROBS]

wel

No. They approved it multiple times before. I'm glad now it was declined, I won't get screwed by Estervals. You also apparently missed my point, that being the stupidity and crappy attitude of the Estervals customer service rep.

well they are declining it now as a foreign transaction.. it's normal.

but I agree about the rep's attitude. Both the response to you on your issue and the other basically reprimanding Jesse for the package being returned and even threatening a bill if it's held in German customs??? Eff that. However I wouldn't say this attitude is abnormal for a German retailer.

 

[BROBS]

Ugh, this sucks. Is there another source for 1lb boxes of Capstan?

NOPE!