I see a value in being aggressively self-interested, but this is different than individualism (me first before all else) or selfishness (me first at the expense of others with legitimate claim to those resources).
Health Benefits Of Tobacco
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Metal makes a distinction which may be without a difference but, I understand it completely. Selfishness has a bad connotation. So, perhaps I should select another adjective. Self-indulgent? Perhaps. I simply see catering to one's self as not all bad unless every decision is based on, "It's all about what I want." Such is taking the behavior to an extreme which may be harmful to one's self and/or others. But, smoking can only be a self-indulgent (better adjective?) decision as it benefits no one else but the smoker. (I'm not buying the old "it improves me as a person", "makes me smarter", "I'm nicer to be around", etc. justifications.)
Unrequired "risky" behavior is simply self-indulgent. Nothing wrong with that in moderation, I believe, if the risks have been adequately weighed.
This discussion is very circular, I thank each and every participant, as I've enjoyed the banter and it keeps my mind off other, more serious facets of my life at this time. Sable and some others are able to simply state a position/observation and leave off. For some reason I feel the urge to keep beating the horse.
Unrequired "risky" behavior is simply self-indulgent. Nothing wrong with that in moderation, I believe, if the risks have been adequately weighed.
This discussion is very circular, I thank each and every participant, as I've enjoyed the banter and it keeps my mind off other, more serious facets of my life at this time. Sable and some others are able to simply state a position/observation and leave off. For some reason I feel the urge to keep beating the horse.
It's like when we talk about addiction, everyone ju7st assumes that addiction is bad. And, they think that because they can quit for a few weeks or a month or so that they aren't addicted. "I can quit anytime." But, they never do. It's not quitting if you come back to it.
But ultimately, my argument would be that addiction, by itself as a behavior is not bad. I just admit it. I'm addicted. I may not start vomiting from withdrawal, but my kids definitely know to avoid me if I am having to temporarily quit or skip a day smoking.
But, as I always say, if you don't want to say your addicted, then don't. But, in my mind, I know... :
:
And, if someone truly quits, then you can just go ahead and dump your tobacco and burn the pipes. Because you'll never need them again, right?
Addicted, healthy, selfishness; people find it very hard to shake their own self-imposed connotations.
As to the OP, I just don't think taking a bunch of research that can be found online to my doctor is going to do anything but make me look like a lunatic. And, fooling myself into thinking that smoking my pipe is a healthy behavior will have no positive outcome... for me. I just treat it like one of the many unhealthy behaviors that we have to deal with throughout our day, and take responsibility for my own actions. Proceed with care and intelligence.
But ultimately, my argument would be that addiction, by itself as a behavior is not bad. I just admit it. I'm addicted. I may not start vomiting from withdrawal, but my kids definitely know to avoid me if I am having to temporarily quit or skip a day smoking.
But, as I always say, if you don't want to say your addicted, then don't. But, in my mind, I know... :
:And, if someone truly quits, then you can just go ahead and dump your tobacco and burn the pipes. Because you'll never need them again, right?
Addicted, healthy, selfishness; people find it very hard to shake their own self-imposed connotations.
As to the OP, I just don't think taking a bunch of research that can be found online to my doctor is going to do anything but make me look like a lunatic. And, fooling myself into thinking that smoking my pipe is a healthy behavior will have no positive outcome... for me. I just treat it like one of the many unhealthy behaviors that we have to deal with throughout our day, and take responsibility for my own actions. Proceed with care and intelligence.
That's a good point. I might add a brief change:
Most of the stuff I want benefits others as well.
And the farmers, blenders, B&M staff and so on. But there's another dimension: every lifestyle choice represents the exclusion of others at least to a certain degree. Would you rather have people smoking, or eating the buffet at Souper Salad?
These are serious questions that must be approached with the utmost gravity, of course. And if the horse is fresh, you have tenderized "brisket" which is a good enough excuse to break out the keg, rifles, airhorns, and fireworks in order to have a little party.
No there isn't. No scientific evidence of any kind has been presented in this thread that "smoking" is beneficial. Scientific evidence that suggests that nicotine and other compounds found in tobacco can be beneficial has been presented. They're two different things.
Warren, ignore the judgemental depredations of the discomforted. I appreciate your ruminations for the thoughtful search they represent.
Perhaps "self centered" as a term will be less "politically incorrect" to those two need to believe that sucking smoke into their lungs can only be beneficial, or never want to be reminded about the decisions they make.
Tobacco is good for me, I have to take way less anti psychotic meds because of my pipes. The world is a safer place.
I accept that I will die someday. I accept smoking may very well move that day up. I decided I prefer enjoying each day to the max, so I don't care. It's acceptable to BS other people but foolish to attempt to BS yourself.
As a psychological aid I tend to think about smoking in the same way as drinking alcohol. I try to smoke as much as I'd feel comfortable drinking; if I ever find I am smoking too much I find that helps slow me down. I imagine the health effects of both taken to excess are quite similar, which is why I think it's odd that my country colours tobacco packets green and covers them in graphic images, but there's no pictures of bloated, liver-damaged stomachs or crashed cars on bottles of vodka or multipacks of lager.
That's not so odd. Society accepts alcohol use as normal, acceptable. Tobacco products? Not so much. It's much easier for governments to put controls on items society has rejected, a much smaller number of voters are impacted. Makes eminently good sense. The politicians don't PO many voters and society in general applauds their actions.
Moving from this statement
"The very idea of taking the by-products of incineration into your body could provide health benefits is ... well laughable."
To this statement
"But, that's my weighing the risks v. the benefits"
Is much easier for me to deal with. I don't have a problem with you owning your judgments about being selfish and prone to vice, I just don't like you condemning everyone else on this site.
A quote from sablebrush52 "Warren, ignore the judgemental depredations of the discomforted. I appreciate your ruminations for the thoughtful search they represent."
I didn't ask him to stop the first ten times I read him claiming we were all selfish vice ridden people. Repeating the same point in a large percentage of his posts doesn't equal thoughtful ruminations. It equates more to a directed effort against this community.
"No there isn't. No scientific evidence of any kind has been presented in this thread that "smoking" is beneficial. Scientific evidence that suggests that nicotine and other compounds found in tobacco can be beneficial has been presented. They're two different things."
Okay then smoking tobacco that is not of the low-nicotine type.
"The very idea of taking the by-products of incineration into your body could provide health benefits is ... well laughable."
To this statement
"But, that's my weighing the risks v. the benefits"
Is much easier for me to deal with. I don't have a problem with you owning your judgments about being selfish and prone to vice, I just don't like you condemning everyone else on this site.
A quote from sablebrush52 "Warren, ignore the judgemental depredations of the discomforted. I appreciate your ruminations for the thoughtful search they represent."
I didn't ask him to stop the first ten times I read him claiming we were all selfish vice ridden people. Repeating the same point in a large percentage of his posts doesn't equal thoughtful ruminations. It equates more to a directed effort against this community.
"No there isn't. No scientific evidence of any kind has been presented in this thread that "smoking" is beneficial. Scientific evidence that suggests that nicotine and other compounds found in tobacco can be beneficial has been presented. They're two different things."
Okay then smoking tobacco that is not of the low-nicotine type.
brightleaf: Nothing to see here. Move along.
The nicotine is one subject. The carcinogens from burning material are another subject entirely.
I've spent my entire life judging people. It's how I pick friends, acquaintances and discard the chaff. I suspect everyone here has some standards with regard to who they will suffer time with. I've never had a problem pointing out good/smart and bad/stupid behavior to family and friends, and yes sometimes strangers. That is what an "aingisior" (a Gaelic term) does. I am a practicing aingisoir or, so my Irish friends say. The chaff I usually ignore as there is no benefit to any interaction which I can discern.
As the nun reported. "No, mother superior, they call it a f**kin' shovel." I don't mince my words nor do I exempt myself when engaging in risky behavior. As opposed to some who reach, stretch and otherwise contort themselves trying to find support for a less than sterling decision. Again, it's my belief that the smoker should simply enjoy the smoke and take ownership for the choice which they obviously are still wrestling with hence, the contortions. I think such background noise interferes with the full enjoyment of the smoking experience.
The nicotine is one subject. The carcinogens from burning material are another subject entirely.
I've spent my entire life judging people. It's how I pick friends, acquaintances and discard the chaff. I suspect everyone here has some standards with regard to who they will suffer time with. I've never had a problem pointing out good/smart and bad/stupid behavior to family and friends, and yes sometimes strangers. That is what an "aingisior" (a Gaelic term) does. I am a practicing aingisoir or, so my Irish friends say. The chaff I usually ignore as there is no benefit to any interaction which I can discern.
As the nun reported. "No, mother superior, they call it a f**kin' shovel." I don't mince my words nor do I exempt myself when engaging in risky behavior. As opposed to some who reach, stretch and otherwise contort themselves trying to find support for a less than sterling decision. Again, it's my belief that the smoker should simply enjoy the smoke and take ownership for the choice which they obviously are still wrestling with hence, the contortions. I think such background noise interferes with the full enjoyment of the smoking experience.
Then your comprehension is at best muddled sophistry. All I've said is that the benefits of nicotine and other compounds are separate from the act of smoking them. Conflate, conflate, conflate.
Vice ridden? Please. That one is your, not Warren's. And if Warren repeats his views on his smoking a thousand times, it's still his privilege, as a member of this forum, to do so. You have the option to tune him out, complain, or go somewhere else. Exactly who made you Lord Protector of the Realm and Defender of the Faith?
"You have the option to tune him out, complain, or go somewhere else."
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Let me do the same. He can repeat his condemnations of us until his voice is gone, and I can point out his choice of words. Vice is not in my common vocabulary, I can assure you that is from his mind. Saying we all practice in vice by smoking is a classic warren statement.
Tell me sablebrush52. How does smoking contribute to Parkinsons? Does smoking help Parkinsons? If I am genetically predisposed to Parkinsons and I am not predisposed to any other ailment, is moderate smoking harmful? Is there some benefit from it? Having to buy insurance, schedule time off from work and pay deductibles in order to get a prescription for nicotine is not something everyone can afford. There are many alkaloids in tobacco that nature provides besides nicotine. In a lot of instances problems with extracted drugs show up as a side effect that is not present when using natural herbs because of this isolation method. The other alkaloids act to counterbalance the negative side effects. You presume to know that smoking is going to be harmful to this person who is predisposed to Parkinsons, based on what? Many smokers live long healthy lives. Why do you want people to think they are harming themselves every time they smoke. Why is that your message?
Who made me defender?
No one. I am not a coward though. Why are you attacking it?
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Let me do the same. He can repeat his condemnations of us until his voice is gone, and I can point out his choice of words. Vice is not in my common vocabulary, I can assure you that is from his mind. Saying we all practice in vice by smoking is a classic warren statement.
Tell me sablebrush52. How does smoking contribute to Parkinsons? Does smoking help Parkinsons? If I am genetically predisposed to Parkinsons and I am not predisposed to any other ailment, is moderate smoking harmful? Is there some benefit from it? Having to buy insurance, schedule time off from work and pay deductibles in order to get a prescription for nicotine is not something everyone can afford. There are many alkaloids in tobacco that nature provides besides nicotine. In a lot of instances problems with extracted drugs show up as a side effect that is not present when using natural herbs because of this isolation method. The other alkaloids act to counterbalance the negative side effects. You presume to know that smoking is going to be harmful to this person who is predisposed to Parkinsons, based on what? Many smokers live long healthy lives. Why do you want people to think they are harming themselves every time they smoke. Why is that your message?
Who made me defender?
No one. I am not a coward though. Why are you attacking it?
So, you do take any negative replies as a personal attack. That explains much.
I'll make one last response: "1a : moral depravity or corruption : wickedness b: a moral fault or failingc : a habitual and usually trivial defect or shortcoming : foible suffered from the vice of curiosity." Webster's Dictionary, emphasis mine.
"1.3 count noun A weakness of character or behaviour; a bad habit.
‘cigars happen to be my father's vice’" as defined in the OED
As you consider dissent a personal attack I withdraw. Thanks for the entertainment though.
I'll make one last response: "1a : moral depravity or corruption : wickedness b: a moral fault or failingc : a habitual and usually trivial defect or shortcoming : foible suffered from the vice of curiosity." Webster's Dictionary, emphasis mine.
"1.3 count noun A weakness of character or behaviour; a bad habit.
‘cigars happen to be my father's vice’" as defined in the OED
As you consider dissent a personal attack I withdraw. Thanks for the entertainment though.
So everyone here has a trivial defect and/or shortcoming. Thanks for letting us know who we are warren.
I don't see smokers this way. Nor do I see myself this way.
I don't see smokers this way. Nor do I see myself this way.
Maybe we should use the term indulgence, meaning something that we do because it is pleasurable that does not have effects far beyond us.
As for me, I would rather go back to the 1980s world of cigarette smoke everywhere, people drinking all the time, kids playing with machetes, etc. than our current neurotic world.
State of mind is really important.
As for me, I would rather go back to the 1980s world of cigarette smoke everywhere, people drinking all the time, kids playing with machetes, etc. than our current neurotic world.
State of mind is really important.
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