Health Benefits Of Tobacco

[prairiedruid]

Saying those you meet in present pow wows is the same as those that existed in the past shows a lack of understanding of Native American history.

I didn't say that, I said they recognize the differences. Also I've known far more Native Americans outside of pow wows than those I've met at them. As to my lack of understanding of Native American history...well we're going to vehemently disagree with each other.

 

[brightleaf]

They were then left with our accounts of their history to rebuild their identity

The Native Americans did not have a written language. Most were killed by disease, much of their indigenous knowledge was lost with the dead. The remaining Indians were killed in mass, rounded up, moved from their native lands. The people left were raised in boarding schools, did not know their traditional language and had only a few oral stories left from their previous wealth of knowledge. If they did not rebuild their identity from our accounts, from what resource did it come? There may have been a few stories that have ancient origin but these stories are not representative of what once was. It is just a glimpse of what may have been.
“the government also endeavored to suppress Native American religious beliefs

and practices: the goal of both church and state was to assimilate the Indians by

destroying Indian religion and culture and replacing them with Christianity and

"American" culture. From a twentieth-century perspective, these joint efforts

to destroy Native American beliefs and practices and replace them with Christianity”

From Ghost Dance and Holy Ghost: The Echoes of Nineteenth-Century Christianization Policy in

Twentieth-Century Native American Free Exercise Cases
The beliefs of Ghost Dance practitioners

“Do not tell the white people about this. Jesus is now upon the earth. He appears like a cloud. The dead are all alive again. I do not know when they will be here; maybe this fall or in the spring. When the time comes there will be no more sickness and everyone will be young again.”

From The Messiah Letter from Wovoka

by James Mooney

 

[warren]

The Native Americans had their children taken from them and were forced to go to schools, at the same time being forbidden from speaking their native language. They were then left with our accounts of their history to rebuild their identity. Saying those you meet in present pow wows is the same as those that existed in the past shows a lack of understanding of Native American history

Obviously he's not heard of "elders" and the story tellers who pass on a rich oral history to the younger ones. Many of the recitations go back eons.
It seems most of the observations and belief's "brightleaf" offers up are based on reading with little in the way of "life experience." Most likely written by "white" historians/anthropologists with an axe to grind. In this instance I can state that I have taught Native Americans in police academies, spoken with elders to find the best teaching methods for "reaching" indigenous recruits and often spent time, albeit in short doses, living in their villages.
A little "one sided" research can be a bad thing without proper mentoring or an open mind. So, from my experiences, the quote above is patently bunk, at least with respect to the various "Indian" and Eskimo cultures I have rubbed shoulders with.
A bit of delving into the the histories of the Cherokee and other so-called "civilized" tribes would provide many observations and instances which contradict most of the quote.
A suggestion: Spend some time on a reservation, cultivate some friendships and learn of the rich histories which are passed down generation to generation. See how some live, observe what many do to preserve their long heritage and their language. Go there, don't just read authors who may or may not have an agenda for what they write.

 

[prairiedruid]

much of their indigenous knowledge was lost with the dead.

Much doesn't mean all.

the government also endeavored to suppress Native American religious beliefs

and practices

Endeavored doesn't mean total success. Also the level of suppression of the tribes and their beliefs varied greatly by location across the U.S.
I think this is at the point where we agree to disagree. Time for some MM 965.

 

[pipeman7]

They were then left with our accounts of their history to rebuild their identity

The Native Americans did not have a written language. Most were killed by disease, much of their indigenous knowledge was lost with the dead. The remaining Indians were killed in mass, rounded up, moved from their native lands. The people left were raised in boarding schools, did not know their traditional language and had only a few oral stories left from their previous wealth of knowledge. If they did not rebuild their identity from our accounts, from what resource did it come? There may have been a few stories that have ancient origin but these stories are not representative of what once was. It is just a glimpse of what may have been.
“the government also endeavored to suppress Native American religious beliefs

and practices: the goal of both church and state was to assimilate the Indians by

destroying Indian religion and culture and replacing them with Christianity and

"American" culture. From a twentieth-century perspective, these joint efforts

to destroy Native American beliefs and practices and replace them with Christianity”

From Ghost Dance and Holy Ghost: The Echoes of Nineteenth-Century Christianization Policy in

Twentieth-Century Native American Free Exercise Cases
The beliefs of Ghost Dance practitioners

“Do not tell the white people about this. Jesus is now upon the earth. He appears like a cloud. The dead are all alive again. I do not know when they will be here; maybe this fall or in the spring. When the time comes there will be no more sickness and everyone will be young again.”

From The Messiah Letter from Wovoka

by James Mooney
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #

Um there's tons and tons of history, beliefs, customs, etc that were recorded from the time of first contact. Lots of rich oral tradition written down. There's a lot of time between 1500 and the Ghost Dance movement Wokova died in 1932

 

[pipeman7]

The people left were raised in boarding schools, did not know their traditional language and had only a few oral stories left from their previous wealth of knowledge

And you know there's two giant continents that were populated for hundreds of thousands of years, right? Not everyone went to boarding school

 

[pipeman7]

The point is while its true that much of the history ids lost and forgotten local tribal customs were maintained in many cases, especially tobacco customs

 

[brightleaf]

pipeman7 "Um there's tons and tons of history, beliefs, customs, etc that were recorded from the time of first contact. Lots of rich oral tradition written down. There's a lot of time between 1500 and the Ghost Dance movement Wokova died in 1932"

You just agreed with the point I was making.

"And you know there's two giant continents that were populated for hundreds of thousands of years, right? Not everyone went to boarding school"

This shows no understanding of what was written.
warren: "It seems most of the observations and belief's "brightleaf" offers up are based on reading with little in the way of "life experience." Most likely written by "white" historians/anthropologists with an axe to grind."
Not at all. I have more life experience than you would believe, I try not to make this a dick swinging contest but I would bet I know more Native Americans than you and am even part Native American myself. I have conducted sweat lodges and gone on multiple vision quests. My life extends to more than just that and have experiences in many different worlds. I choose to cite things because it allows people to look up the evidence for themselves. Proclaiming something as true with nothing to base it on is what I call Bullshit. Arguing that everyone is this, or they were all that is also bullshit.

 

[pipeman7]

You just agreed with the point I was making.

which is what

 

[prairiedruid]

I try not to make this a dick swinging contest but I would bet I know more Native Americans than you and am even part Native American myself. I have conducted sweat lodges and gone on multiple vision quests. My life extends to more than just that and have experiences in many different worlds

Seems like you made it a dick swinging contest.......

 

[prairiedruid]

We used to be talking about tobacco; now we're swinging dicks!
I blame ducks. Again.

 

[brightleaf]

I meant to say "I try not to make arguments dick swinging contests." I made an exception for warren. He taught some Indians in a police school.

He was saying that my use of books proves I have no real life experience. I don't know why he thinks reading books requires one to have no life.
The point I was trying to make pipeman7 was that much of the beliefs that Native Americans take "ownership" of is provided to them through the recorded oral history of their ancestors. Records that were written by white people. Archaeological evidence as well as old photos, films and other collections from museums also provide insight. While much is still taught within families, the influence on Native American society from the conquest was devastating to their culture. To pretend that Native American culture is the same as it was preconquest is just that, pretending. A lot was lost and much of what was preserved is preserved by records that were written down.

 

[brightleaf]

I have read many books (20 or so) by Native Americans as well. I don't mean to imply they didn't learn to write in school (although some are dictated.) But the ones that wrote did go to school, which is a huge influence on how a person thinks. The difference in thought is apparent with the degree of education a Native American has. Coyote Medicine by Lewis Mehl-Madonna is an example of that difference.

 

[pipeman7]

Your own source for the quote from Wokovia is from James Mooney, a white guy.

 

[pipeman7]

I'm not trying to pretend that the culture wasn't mutilated, but there is still a lot of history that survives. The pre-history its whats missing

 

[warren]

You've done it again!
"He was saying that my use of books proves I have no real life experience." I wrote no such thing.
As you've not previously, that I've read, posted any background which would help to determine weight for your opinions and observations, I could make no other assumption. One's bona fides assists readers to weigh a person's statements. This is why, in some cases, I lay out my personal experiences when offering up an observation or statement. I want people to understand that I have some "hands on" experience in the area I am "pontificating" about.
I know for a fact that one can wander in the "Four Corners" area and, with a bit of effort, hear lore and legend basically unchanged for thousands of years. The youngsters chosen to relate these sagas spend years learning them so can be iterated again and again without error. As with the Irish "seanchai" (shawn key), story tellers/historians, these tales mirror historical "facts" but, must be "interpreted". These histories were put into story form so as to keep the listeners interest and are not purely "tales". And, to enable the keepers of the history to memorize them. They are histories, prehistoric histories, based on true events, woven to entertain as well as teach.
I'm sure some tribes/clans have lost their oral histories. I'm also sure many have not.
Here in Alaska, many indigenous groups refuse to provide DNA, as results could/would conflict with their oral histories and beliefs with respect to their arrival in Alaska. They refer to themselves as "the first people." Your painting all Native Americans with such a large brush requires those who know better to write rebuttals, not so much to change your mind, most likely not possible, but to allow others exposure to other valid points of view.
It is simply unfair to Native Americans to paint them all in such generalities. It is also unfair to the interested reader wanting to learn.

 

[brightleaf]

I intentionally withhold my biography, I will give you that. That choice is mine. I do not think it is a good practice to judge a person's words, ideas, or information based on their claims, DNA, wealth, title or education. I find it hard not to do, but have been deceived too many times to allow myself to be conned any longer. Phrases like "Officials say", "Research proves," "Doctor so and so says," "I make this much an hour", etc. are sneaky methods to infiltrate our thought process. I do value background but do not choose to use it as a method to support my arguments. You are more than welcome to, I enjoy it. I just do not think it is right to disregard someone due to their background. I will read and listen to everyone, any educational background, philosophy, religion, or life experiences. I judge people's arguments based on the merits of their words, not by any other attributes.
Concerning Native Americans. We are given a picture of them in school that is painted in generalities. I would guess that you were given one that generally portrayed them in a more savage light. Today's children are given the generality of a Noble Indian and one that preaches Environmental Activism and Nature Love. Personally, I believe that there was no North American Indian philosophy, that there were many tribes, all different, and differences among the individuals in those tribes. While they may have shared a similar metaphysics to some degree, they did not hold a common doctrine such as the Amish do. We may be taught the pipe ceremony and be given the words of Chief Seattle as an example of what the Natives thought, but these are not representative of the common indian in my opinion. The only common thread among Native Americans that I know of is Tobacco. In fact, it was mainly pipe smoking. While there were pipe ceremonies, I believe the sense of sacredness pervaded every aspect of the lives of at least some if not the majority of Native Americans. Life was not as easy for them as it is for us, recognizing the blessings we receive is more common when life is difficult. I also believe that they held tobacco to be a sacred herb in it's own right, the idea of a Nicorette chewing gum ceremony is silly. Extracting the virtues of the tobacco plant to reap the benefits of Nicotine is not something they would generally accept.

 

[pipeman7]

We may be taught the pipe ceremony and be given the words of Chief Seattle as an example of what the Natives thought, but these are not representative of the common indian in my opinion.

So you quote Wovoka (who was basically just copying what the dreamers had done earlier in the 19th century) as representative of what? Wasn't he pretty much a fraud who who took advantage of his people at their weakest?

 

[brightleaf]

No. The point of the Wovoka post was to give people a clue of the originating thoughts behind the Ghost Dance.

The indians were given an education in the bible and used it's beliefs to found a massive movement and rebellion among the whites. You may not get this knowledge from Wikipedia but it is evident with any real research.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves

The Ghost Dance was done in order to raise the dead for a battle with the white invaders. The ideas of resurrection came from the bible.

 

[pipeman7]

Yes its obvious the Ghost Dance was heavily influenced by christianity however there were still tribal religious customs practiced in the era of the Ghost Dance. The Navajo for example.