Flair Espresso Machines?

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danimalia

Lifer
Sep 2, 2015
4,487
27,255
42
San Francisco Bay Area, USA
This, like scotch or cognac, is one of those times when I'm thankful for my relative insensitivity. Certainly I have "preferances" which I indulge, but nothing that drives me to try and justify owning a 5k object that produces one bitter ounce of coffee I would rather have a mug of.
I used to feel the same way about straight espresso, but traveling in Italy changed my opinion. I ended up really appreciating the rich flavor and thick mouthfeel, and I liked that you could knock them back in a couple of sips and then move on to the next thing. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have given it that much of a chance if I hadn't read that ordering coffee drinks with milk after noon or so was kind of a faux pas.
 
Jun 18, 2020
3,978
14,086
Wilmington, NC
If you want like what you get at the barista's, you need to get a machine like the Barista uses.

Semi-auto or auto machines will leave you wanting more and you will have spent north of half what a GOOD espresso machine will cost you. I have a Rocket R-58 on my counter but if I had known about Quickmill at the time, I probably would have bought one of theirs. Much better priced and as good in quality IMHO.... If you buy a real machine, you will be passing it down to your kids in a few decades.

No need for a double boiler if you don't do foo-foo drinks on a regular basis. A single boiler will do foo-foos perfectly and they are 1/2 to 2/3 the price. Buy a real Espresso machine and take care of it, and you will never have to buy another coffeemaker again.
I have and recommend a Gagia Classic. It's a very good entry level espresso machine. But, the more important (and more expensive) piece is a quality grinder that will do consistent espresso grinds
 
This, like scotch or cognac, is one of those times when I'm thankful for my relative insensitivity. Certainly I have "preferances" which I indulge, but nothing that drives me to try and justify owning a 5k object that produces one bitter ounce of coffee I would rather have a mug of.
This is a common misconception in that if you have an Espresso machine, you must drink Espresso. I have owned 2 REAL Espresso machines (Rocket Apartamento and my current machine, a Rocket R58) and I have never had a cup of Espresso. I almost always drink Americano Coffee; a shot of Espresso and 3 shots of hot water. Very few people I know in the U.S. drink straight Espresso. It's too strong for me and destroys my palate.

The object of espresso is to create a coffee drink that actually TASTES like coffee SMELLS. This is achieved by using the right amount of grounds, ground at the correct fineness to extract a shot of 30ml (60,l if using a double basket) at 9-10 bar pressure in 25-30 seconds. Under-extracted, your shot will be sour. Over-extracted and your shot will be bitter. If done correctly (it takes a little practice) your "shot" will smell and taste just like the fresh ground coffee which you used to make it. Take that shot and add hot water (my preference is a 3 to 1 ratio, YMMV) and you now have a cup of COFFEE that tastes exactly like it smells.

A REAL Espresso machine will start at around $1,500 and an appropriate Espresso grinder will cost you another $1,000 so yes, it's a lot of money to spend for a damn cup of coffee but if this is one of your life's pleasures, it will bring you immense joy then it's cheap, all things being relative.

BTW, Espresso machines and grinders are COMPLETELY rebuildable and the parts are relatively inexpensive. Even if you only have rudimentary mechanical skills you can do it all yourself, just make sure you buy brand names so parts will always be available. In 4 years, I have had zero repairs on either the grinder or the Espresso machine with minimal maintenance (maybe an hour every 2-3 months) defined as decalcification and light tear down and cleaning of the brew head.

A WORD OF CAUTION:

Owning a real Espresso machine will lead to worse things happening to . You will discover that there are a lot better beans out there and you can taste the difference, so you will seek out boutique roasters with good reputations making small batches. After you get tired of paying Boutique roaster prices, you start looking at roasters and, well.....

And down the rabbit hole you go....

One day, after all this you will find yourself at Pete's or Starbucks or CB&TL and you grab a cup of their coffee (probably an Americano since drip coffee is just soggy bean juice and because of your Espresso, you can no longer abide such an abhorrence!) and you might be compelled to spit it out! You might even be offended that they sell that crappy burned brew at all let alone for 4 bucks a cup! Then you will proceed to recite in your head ALL the things they did wrong in roasting and brewing the coffee in front of you. You might even question the quality of the green they are using(Is that Robusto I taste?), and you will think to yourself "Hell! For 6-8 bucks I can buy a pound of some of the world's finest Arabican green beans (un-roasted coffee beans) and then you will know you have arrived on the Coffee Consciousness Plane...from which there is no turning back:

You have taken the Red Pill.... puffy

FWIW, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my journey amongst the Coffee Conscious and would not give it up for ten times the money I have invested.

Sorry for using so many words but all of us on here know about passion and hobbies.... puffy


-MIKE DROP-
 

timelord

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 30, 2017
955
1,984
Gallifrey
I used to feel the same way about straight espresso, but traveling in Italy changed my opinion. I ended up really appreciating the rich flavor and thick mouthfeel, and I liked that you could knock them back in a couple of sips and then move on to the next thing. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have given it that much of a chance if I hadn't read that ordering coffee drinks with milk after noon or so was kind of a faux pas.
Between 1999 and 2010 I spent a lot of time working in Lugano; although it's in Switzerland it's in the Italian speaking canton of Ticino and to be honest it feels like you are in Italy - especially when it comes to coffee (and food). I remember my boss getting a long lecture on the correct etiquette of coffee ordering when he tried to order a cappuccino in the afternoon (fortunately I was already an espresso drinker so I avoided that faux pas).

It's very much like being in Italy except with Swiss Francs and a slightly less Italian and more Swiss attitude to rules.
 

timelord

Part of the Furniture Now
Oct 30, 2017
955
1,984
Gallifrey
This is a common misconception in that if you have an Espresso machine, you must drink Espresso. I have owned 2 REAL Espresso machines (Rocket Apartamento and my current machine, a Rocket R58) and I have never had a cup of Espresso. I almost always drink Americano Coffee; a shot of Espresso and 3 shots of hot water. Very few people I know in the U.S. drink straight Espresso. It's too strong for me and destroys my palate.

The object of espresso is to create a coffee drink that actually TASTES like coffee SMELLS. This is achieved by using the right amount of grounds, ground at the correct fineness to extract a shot of 30ml (60,l if using a double basket) at 9-10 bar pressure in 25-30 seconds. Under-extracted, your shot will be sour. Over-extracted and your shot will be bitter. If done correctly (it takes a little practice) your "shot" will smell and taste just like the fresh ground coffee which you used to make it. Take that shot and add hot water (my preference is a 3 to 1 ratio, YMMV) and you now have a cup of COFFEE that tastes exactly like it smells.

A REAL Espresso machine will start at around $1,500 and an appropriate Espresso grinder will cost you another $1,000 so yes, it's a lot of money to spend for a damn cup of coffee but if this is one of your life's pleasures, it will bring you immense joy then it's cheap, all things being relative.

BTW, Espresso machines and grinders are COMPLETELY rebuildable and the parts are relatively inexpensive. Even if you only have rudimentary mechanical skills you can do it all yourself, just make sure you buy brand names so parts will always be available. In 4 years, I have had zero repairs on either the grinder or the Espresso machine with minimal maintenance (maybe an hour every 2-3 months) defined as decalcification and light tear down and cleaning of the brew head.

A WORD OF CAUTION:

Owning a real Espresso machine will lead to worse things happening to . You will discover that there are a lot better beans out there and you can taste the difference, so you will seek out boutique roasters with good reputations making small batches. After you get tired of paying Boutique roaster prices, you start looking at roasters and, well.....

And down the rabbit hole you go....

One day, after all this you will find yourself at Pete's or Starbucks or CB&TL and you grab a cup of their coffee (probably an Americano since drip coffee is just soggy bean juice and because of your Espresso, you can no longer abide such an abhorrence!) and you might be compelled to spit it out! You might even be offended that they sell that crappy burned brew at all let alone for 4 bucks a cup! Then you will proceed to recite in your head ALL the things they did wrong in roasting and brewing the coffee in front of you. You might even question the quality of the green they are using(Is that Robusto I taste?), and you will think to yourself "Hell! For 6-8 bucks I can buy a pound of some of the world's finest Arabican green beans (un-roasted coffee beans) and then you will know you have arrived on the Coffee Consciousness Plane...from which there is no turning back:

You have taken the Red Pill.... puffy

FWIW, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my journey amongst the Coffee Conscious and would not give it up for ten times the money I have invested.

Sorry for using so many words but all of us on here know about passion and hobbies.... puffy


-MIKE DROP-
You just reminded me that the one thing I hated about all my trips (work or holiday) to the US was my inability (except for a couple of honourable exceptions) to get a decent cup of something resembling coffee and not some giant mug of coloured water that tasted like the waste from a dishwasher.

If I ask where there's a good coffee shop and the answer is directions to the nearest Starbucks then I know I'm just going to be drinking mineral water during the day. Oddly one of the most reliable places for a good coffee was at an industry trade show in Las Vegas. Didn't matter which hotel we were in; one of our competitors always had a professional barista on their stand and no problem with their competitors getting coffees from him (didn't even charge me).

Yes, I've taken the Red Pill...
 
Jun 18, 2020
3,978
14,086
Wilmington, NC
This is a common misconception in that if you have an Espresso machine, you must drink Espresso. I have owned 2 REAL Espresso machines (Rocket Apartamento and my current machine, a Rocket R58) and I have never had a cup of Espresso. I almost always drink Americano Coffee; a shot of Espresso and 3 shots of hot water. Very few people I know in the U.S. drink straight Espresso. It's too strong for me and destroys my palate.

The object of espresso is to create a coffee drink that actually TASTES like coffee SMELLS. This is achieved by using the right amount of grounds, ground at the correct fineness to extract a shot of 30ml (60,l if using a double basket) at 9-10 bar pressure in 25-30 seconds. Under-extracted, your shot will be sour. Over-extracted and your shot will be bitter. If done correctly (it takes a little practice) your "shot" will smell and taste just like the fresh ground coffee which you used to make it. Take that shot and add hot water (my preference is a 3 to 1 ratio, YMMV) and you now have a cup of COFFEE that tastes exactly like it smells.

A REAL Espresso machine will start at around $1,500 and an appropriate Espresso grinder will cost you another $1,000 so yes, it's a lot of money to spend for a damn cup of coffee but if this is one of your life's pleasures, it will bring you immense joy then it's cheap, all things being relative.

BTW, Espresso machines and grinders are COMPLETELY rebuildable and the parts are relatively inexpensive. Even if you only have rudimentary mechanical skills you can do it all yourself, just make sure you buy brand names so parts will always be available. In 4 years, I have had zero repairs on either the grinder or the Espresso machine with minimal maintenance (maybe an hour every 2-3 months) defined as decalcification and light tear down and cleaning of the brew head.

A WORD OF CAUTION:

Owning a real Espresso machine will lead to worse things happening to . You will discover that there are a lot better beans out there and you can taste the difference, so you will seek out boutique roasters with good reputations making small batches. After you get tired of paying Boutique roaster prices, you start looking at roasters and, well.....

And down the rabbit hole you go....

One day, after all this you will find yourself at Pete's or Starbucks or CB&TL and you grab a cup of their coffee (probably an Americano since drip coffee is just soggy bean juice and because of your Espresso, you can no longer abide such an abhorrence!) and you might be compelled to spit it out! You might even be offended that they sell that crappy burned brew at all let alone for 4 bucks a cup! Then you will proceed to recite in your head ALL the things they did wrong in roasting and brewing the coffee in front of you. You might even question the quality of the green they are using(Is that Robusto I taste?), and you will think to yourself "Hell! For 6-8 bucks I can buy a pound of some of the world's finest Arabican green beans (un-roasted coffee beans) and then you will know you have arrived on the Coffee Consciousness Plane...from which there is no turning back:

You have taken the Red Pill.... puffy

FWIW, I continue to thoroughly enjoy my journey amongst the Coffee Conscious and would not give it up for ten times the money I have invested.

Sorry for using so many words but all of us on here know about passion and hobbies.... puffy


-MIKE DROP-
^^ That!
 

jpmcwjr

Lifer
May 12, 2015
26,264
30,360
Carmel Valley, CA
Yeah, for $1500 minimum plus another G for a grinder, that equipment better suck my di?

Just not happening on my budget or interest level. No judging those who go that route, but it ain't for me.
No sucking available, but you can steam it! I have a good grinder I've had for 7 years, and it was well under $1,000. One in the Baratza line of grinders.
 

tobefrank

Lifer
Jun 22, 2015
1,367
5,008
Australia
I haven't gotten to the stage that I want to lay down that kind of investment. However, with my USD$500 Breville home machine I make equal or better espresso coffees than 80-90% of coffeeshops and certainly better than shops like Starbucks.

I AM starting to become a snob about the beans that I use after being in a 6 month single origin subscription.

My favourite way to drink espresso coffee is as a macchiato.
 
I haven't gotten to the stage that I want to lay down that kind of investment. However, with my USD$500 Breville home machine I make equal or better espresso coffees than 80-90% of coffeeshops and certainly better than shops like Starbucks.

I AM starting to become a snob about the beans that I use after being in a 6 month single origin subscription.

My favourite way to drink espresso coffee is as a macchiato.
It's a slippery slope.....
 

jpmcwjr

Lifer
May 12, 2015
26,264
30,360
Carmel Valley, CA
Maybe 50gr? I only dose 18-20gr per shot with a total of 40-45gr after the shot is pulled, depending on my mood.
Hah! That's exactly what I shoot for with my shots! I sometimes use my double, about 24 gr, usually to pull for two cups. Otherwise, it's the naked portafilter when I am making just one. (Quickmill Andreja prem.)
 

jpmcwjr

Lifer
May 12, 2015
26,264
30,360
Carmel Valley, CA
I haven't gotten to the stage that I want to lay down that kind of investment. However, with my USD$500 Breville home machine I make equal or better espresso coffees than 80-90% of coffeeshops and certainly better than shops like Starbucks.

I AM starting to become a snob about the beans that I use after being in a 6 month single origin subscription.

My favourite way to drink espresso coffee is as a macchiato.
Thems is good! My fav is the cappuccino, then macc, then a tie for third: espresso or Americano. I started making what I call an Italomera, which has less water than an American.

What bean are you using now? I am happy with an Italian roast I order off the inter-webs.
 
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