Deeming Day?

[oldgeezersmoker]

View attachment 72400

Note the date of the article- March 27, 2019. That predates the May 12, 2020 Court decision shit canning the FDA‘s 8/21 deadline and imposing an earlier deadline. Let me just post the relevant paragraph:
“ACS CAN, along with other public health groups, filed a lawsuit against the agency in 2018 alleging the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) shirked its statutory obligations by delaying a critical provision of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. That provision requires e-cigarette and cigar manufacturers to submit new product applications to the agency; however, the FDA issued guidance in 2017 delaying the deadline indefinitely. A trial court ruled in ACS CAN’s favor last year, setting May 12, 2020 as the deadline by which FDA must comply with the provision. At that point, FDA withdrew its opposition and agreed to the deadline, so public health groups and the agency asked for the case to be dismissed by the appeals court. The tobacco industry attempted to keep the case alive in an effort to have the 2017 guidance stay in place, but failed when the Fourth Circuit ruled against it. Unfortunately, the FDA and the trial court granted an extension for the new product applications until September 9 of this year due to the COVID-19 crisis.”

So as far as anything to do with pipe tobacco and the FDA is concerned, the August 2021 date is totally devoid of meaning.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Note the date of the article- March 27, 2019. That predates the May 12, 2020 Court decision shit canning the FDA‘s 8/21 deadline and imposing an earlier deadline. Let me just post the relevant paragraph:
“ACS CAN, along with other public health groups, filed a lawsuit against the agency in 2018 alleging the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) shirked its statutory obligations by delaying a critical provision of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. That provision requires e-cigarette and cigar manufacturers to submit new product applications to the agency; however, the FDA issued guidance in 2017 delaying the deadline indefinitely. A trial court ruled in ACS CAN’s favor last year, setting May 12, 2020 as the deadline by which FDA must comply with the provision. At that point, FDA withdrew its opposition and agreed to the deadline, so public health groups and the agency asked for the case to be dismissed by the appeals court. The tobacco industry attempted to keep the case alive in an effort to have the 2017 guidance stay in place, but failed when the Fourth Circuit ruled against it. Unfortunately, the FDA and the trial court granted an extension for the new product applications until September 9 of this year due to the COVID-19 crisis.”

So as far as anything to do with pipe tobacco and the FDA is concerned, the August 2021 date is totally devoid of meaning.

Thank you for providing fact in the midst of all the speculation, rumor, inuendo and bullshit.

 

[jerseysam]

Bullshit.
Social connections happen everywhere, at home, at work, at school, at church, everywhere. Those connections lead to more access to information. That's reality.

With regard specifically to the McClelland closing leakage, as I've been told, that went through their distributorship for the reasons cited. Clearly all these people did a pretty good job of being discreet. People knew about the closing for months before I was informed about it. Best kept worst kept secret in the tobacco world at that time.

And yeah, I used that info to help some people out. And if that's a problem, it's your problem, not mine.

? Nothing in my post touches on/is critical of anything you wrote. 'Inside' info....which is of all flavors and stripes....happens in every business and hobby. People aren't going to rush out and 'share', publicly, that inside stream often. Not even sure we're making a different point

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

? Nothing in my post touches on/is critical of anything you wrote. 'Inside' info....which is of all flavors and stripes....happens in every business and hobby. People aren't going to rush out and 'share', publicly, that inside stream often. Not even sure we're making a different point

In point of fact, “rumors” of McClellands demise were posted on this and other forums at least a few months before the hammer officially dropped. The overwhelming response to these posts was:
(1) accusations of fear mongering
(2) confidence that either the company or recipes would be sold and the blends would be continued

Me? Mary McNeil had told me years ago at a Pipe show circa 1998 or 1999 that they had no business succession plans. She made that statement in front of at least half a dozen others. Father Time is undefeated. I had already loaded up by the summer of 2017.

 

[krizzose]

my cellar is apocalypse-proof for my purposes, if pathetically tiny by some standards. In any event, I'm glad I don't need to parse any details

 

[sablebrush52]

? Nothing in my post touches on/is critical of anything you wrote. 'Inside' info....which is of all flavors and stripes....happens in every business and hobby. People aren't going to rush out and 'share', publicly, that inside stream often. Not even sure we're making a different point

I apologize. The term "humble bragging" hit a nerve.

The point of what I shared is that not only was there knowledge of McClelland going away long before the announcement, and long before the rumors started, there was pretty detailed information to help their fans know when to find the blends they wanted. I knew what I knew because someone told me, and someone told him, etc, etc.
What's amazing is that nobody really breached the confidentiality of the effort. Some tobacconists clearly did better than others at informing their customers, or were careful not to inform suspected blabbermouths.

 

[tzinc]

The best study is the one that shows pipe smokers who don't inhale are less likely to get cancer. It seems extreme to destroy something that some people enjoy for no reason. I know many traditions have been destroyed but not all of them have to be do they?

 

[sablebrush52]

But without the Deeming I assume we had regulations regarding this. I mean no one ls allowed to put poison into Pipe Tobacco or Vape Liquids and if they were they would be stopped immediately. But Cigarette companies are allowed to put poisons into their tobaccos and this will not change that - it will only make it so Pipe Tobaccos and Vape Liquids are less available due to the costs of testing for these smaller companies putting them out of business and/or making it less likely new blends will be created. . It is the hypocrisy that is galling.

The big difference is that the FDA was given authority regarding the ingredients where there had been little oversight before. There was also quite a bit of concern about ingredients in vaping products and their appeal to younger smokers. From what I've read, those concerns about vaping ingredients are justified. If you read some of FDA pages, it's clear that they don't consider either pipes smoking or cigars as a temptation to kids or young adults because of the "cumbersome" method of smoking. But that somehow doesn't translate to giving pipe tobacco a different status. So, yes, the hypocrisy is galling, if hypocrisy it is, given their goal to end smoking.

 

[sablebrush52]

So as far as anything to do with pipe tobacco and the FDA is concerned, the August 2021 date is totally devoid of meaning.

What about the August 8th 2022 deadline?

 

[fightnhampster]

A good point.

It was just speculation that McClelland was closing up shop for months. They were silent about it which led many people to say it was just doom and gloom nay sayers who were saying they were going to close.

Seemingly out of nowhere they anounced they were closing and by then everything was virtually already gone.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

What about the August 8th 2022 deadline?

Inoperative. Everything, including the period of time the FDA can take to review applications under the various routes such as PTMA, keys off the 9/9/2020 date.

But you hit the nail on the head in one of your replie, the FDA is focused on youth marketing, vapes most urgently. This is why a large number of pipe tobacco products are flying under the substantial equivalence route. These applications can be batch submitted. Vape and other “next generation “ nicotine products have to be submitted one by one with separate and discrete paperwork, which is heavily focused on marketping in. addition to chemical content. They get the full protological cam.

To make up an example, Perique is based on Burley Seed. So is Dark Fired Kentucky. A lawyer might reasonably argue that substituting one for the other is substantially equivalent. You and I know they aren’t. A regulator who is focused on the problem the statute was designed to solve might wave the application through.

Do I know things like this are going on? Well, I’m not supposed to. Is everybody doing it? I don’t think so, wetness the Pipe and Cigar blending kits. But Pipes and Cigars is owned bt Cigars International, which is owned by Scandinavian Tobacco Group, and given that most of their revenue comes from cigars, why take an aggressive stance over pipe tobacco?

 

[logs]

What about the August 8th 2022 deadline?

What blends/brands are on the endangered species list in your opinion? I worry about Seattle Pipe Club

 

[Servant King]

The best study is the one that shows pipe smokers who don't inhale are less likely to get cancer. It seems extreme to destroy something that some people enjoy for no reason. I know many traditions have been destroyed but not all of them have to be do they?

Yes they do, actually. That's how they feed. Watch They Live and you'll know what I mean.

 

[brian64]

Yes they do, actually. That's how they feed. Watch They Live and you'll know what I mean.

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

It was just speculation that McClelland was closing up shop for months. They were silent about it which led many people to say it was just doom and gloom nay sayers who were saying they were going to close.

Seemingly out of nowhere they anounced they were closing and by then everything was virtually already gone.

Not precisely accurate. If you weren't convinced by January that McClelland was done, you had to have your head buried in sand. Most McClelland products were still available well into February. You could buy virtually all the 40th Anniversary you wanted. St James Woods was one of the favorites that was gone relatively early along with 5100. I'm glad I bought what I did but wish I would have bought five times as much.

I don't believe anyone can actually say exactly what will happen with the deeming crap. If I had to guess, I'd wager not much. On the other hand, a serious pipe smoker should be buying as much as they can possibly afford to hedge their bets.

 

[oldgeezersmoker]

I don't believe anyone can actually say exactly what will happen with the deeming crap. If I had to guess, I'd wager not much. On the other hand, a serious pipe smoker should be buying as much as they can possibly afford to hedge their bets.

There is, no surprise, a huge lack of transparency when it comes down to what will happen to any individual blend by any particular manufacturer. Blends will be discontinued and the trade will be told “FDA made us do it” when in reality the blend might have been on the chopping block anyway. And some blends will not survive because they really can’t fit one of the exemptions and filing as a new product really would be cost prohibitive from that individual makers point of view. We will likely never know the true reasons for individual blend decisions. We will of course be told reasons, but take those explanations with several salt tablets.

But ever since I started smoking a Pipe in a serious way circa 1979, blends have disappeared quite suddenly with no internet warning system. Recipes similarly changed without notice. Old made in the U.K. Escudo in tins with weight given only in ounces with no gram equivalent was a totally different tobacco than the last made in the U.K. with weight given in ounces and grams and the € symbol. Taxes and inflation have gone up relentlessly over those years.

I have bought more tobacco than current smoking requires since these trends became obvious to me sometime in the early 1980’s. i continue to do so. To me, what the FDA might or might not do is a pimple on an elephants butt compared to the three other always present trends I just identified.

 

[Ahi Ka]

OP, the deeming regs are just codger conspiracy to get you to stock up on newer blends and leave their old time favourites alone.

 

[BROBS]

I apologize. The term "humble bragging" hit a nerve.

The point of what I shared is that not only was there knowledge of McClelland going away long before the announcement, and long before the rumors started, there was pretty detailed information to help their fans know when to find the blends they wanted. I knew what I knew because someone told me, and someone told him, etc, etc.
What's amazing is that nobody really breached the confidentiality of the effort. Some tobacconists clearly did better than others at informing their customers, or were careful not to inform suspected blabbermouths.

Humblebrag superstar

 

[BROBS]

Not precisely accurate. If you weren't convinced by January that McClelland was done, you had to have your head buried in sand. Most McClelland products were still available well into February. You could buy virtually all the 40th Anniversary you wanted. St James Woods was one of the favorites that was gone relatively early along with 5100. I'm glad I bought what I did but wish I would have bought five times as much.

I don't believe anyone can actually say exactly what will happen with the deeming crap. If I had to guess, I'd wager not much. On the other hand, a serious pipe smoker should be buying as much as they can possibly afford to hedge their bets.

Any idea what a non-serious pipe smoker should do?

 

[hoosierpipeguy]

Any idea what a non-serious pipe smoker should do?

You'd be the perfect candidate to answer that question.