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ChubbyOldHiker

Might Stick Around
Jan 29, 2025
58
144
Kenner, LA
Resurrecting an old thread…

Returning to pipes after an a sense of nearly 30 years, never had SWR but knew of its reputation. I bought a small pouch from SPC and it has the STG stamp on it. I was aware of the potential issues with vinegar, but as a fan of anything pickled, thought I’d give it a try. This was a couple of weeks ago.

Mild vinegar straight from the pouch. Not sure I’d have noticed it had I not been on the lookout for it, but there it was. Made a bowl of it in my new cob (only a few bowls smoked prior, HH being the only aro blend I tried beforehand). Strong sour right off the bat, not throughly unpleasant, so I finished the bowl. It got progressively worse as I smoked. By the end I felt like I’d gargled white cleaning vinegar.

Worried about an acid burn on my tongue, and already suffering mild tongue bite, I swished some water in my mouth and spit it out, which helped but didn’t cure it. It was stuck in the papillae of my tongue. So I made a solution of about a half tablespoon of baking soda in a cup of water and swished that around for a few minutes. My tongue felt a bit tingly and, once that subsided and my tongue felt normal again, I spat the solution into the kitchen sink. It was all foam, indicating that the baking soda had neutralized the acetic acid I was tasting, releasing carbon dioxide bubbles (which also caused the tingle) and it was gone from my mouth at that point.

I sealed up the pouch until today. I’m going to air it out. Vinegar is watered down acetic acid, about 5% by volume. Acetic acid is a liquid at room temperature and has a boiling point a little higher than that of water when pure. Therefore, in theory, it can evaporate out of the tobacco just as water can, but somewhat more slowly.

A confounder could be that we actually taste an acetate salt, which is non-volatile, and the acetate will have to react with any available water to steal a proton and thus become volatile. Sadly we can’t know this without chemical analyses of various types.

I’m going to air out my pouch and see what happens. I imagine the sour will weaken over time but there’s only one way to find out, and I mean to try. Note that this will be a subjective study only; I lack the means and time to do something quantitative and repeatable.

I’m not a practicing chemist though I have most of a doctorate in it and use it daily for my job. I’d never claim to know everything, so I would enjoy reading others thoughts if they have them. Especially if I got something wrong! 😁
 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
14,329
28,448
SE PA USA
I always assumed that the acetic acid taste/aroma that was characteristic of some McClelland blends was a byproduct of fermentation, that is, naturally occurring (although induced). When Sutliff came out with RC-1, it seemed that they had actually added acetic acid to the blend to try and mimic the McClelland flavor profile. It would seem that STG may be doing the same now.

Thoughts and comments?
 

Pypkė

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 3, 2024
868
2,266
East of Cleveland, Ohio. USA
My son gave me a pouch of SWR Regular - it had a vinegary odor - much like the vinegar whang I got off of a tin of SPC Plum Pudding. The SWR smoked OK - no objections. A pound of SWR costs more than a pound of Pegasus so probably will not stock up on this stuff.
 
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Zamora

Lifer
Mar 15, 2023
1,150
2,989
Olympia, Washington
I always assumed that the acetic acid taste/aroma that was characteristic of some McClelland blends was a byproduct of fermentation, that is, naturally occurring (although induced). When Sutliff came out with RC-1, it seemed that they had actually added acetic acid to the blend to try and mimic the McClelland flavor profile. It would seem that STG may be doing the same now.

Thoughts and comments?
I don't see STG deliberately trying to mimic McClelland, but it makes perfect sense for Sutliff. STG overwhelmingly caters to a customer base that probably hasn't even heard of McClelland but Sutliff definitely catered to the crowd that does. Besides it seems bizarre to use a codger burley to mimic McClelland, I'd think they'd use OGS, Escudo, or any of the Pete VAs if they wanted to get that effect. I don't know if McClelland even made any straight burleys.
 

OverMountain

Lifer
Dec 5, 2021
1,518
5,321
NOVA
Resurrecting an old thread…

Returning to pipes after an a sense of nearly 30 years, never had SWR but knew of its reputation. I bought a small pouch from SPC and it has the STG stamp on it. I was aware of the potential issues with vinegar, but as a fan of anything pickled, thought I’d give it a try. This was a couple of weeks ago.

Mild vinegar straight from the pouch. Not sure I’d have noticed it had I not been on the lookout for it, but there it was. Made a bowl of it in my new cob (only a few bowls smoked prior, HH being the only aro blend I tried beforehand). Strong sour right off the bat, not throughly unpleasant, so I finished the bowl. It got progressively worse as I smoked. By the end I felt like I’d gargled white cleaning vinegar.

Worried about an acid burn on my tongue, and already suffering mild tongue bite, I swished some water in my mouth and spit it out, which helped but didn’t cure it. It was stuck in the papillae of my tongue. So I made a solution of about a half tablespoon of baking soda in a cup of water and swished that around for a few minutes. My tongue felt a bit tingly and, once that subsided and my tongue felt normal again, I spat the solution into the kitchen sink. It was all foam, indicating that the baking soda had neutralized the acetic acid I was tasting, releasing carbon dioxide bubbles (which also caused the tingle) and it was gone from my mouth at that point.

I sealed up the pouch until today. I’m going to air it out. Vinegar is watered down acetic acid, about 5% by volume. Acetic acid is a liquid at room temperature and has a boiling point a little higher than that of water when pure. Therefore, in theory, it can evaporate out of the tobacco just as water can, but somewhat more slowly.

A confounder could be that we actually taste an acetate salt, which is non-volatile, and the acetate will have to react with any available water to steal a proton and thus become volatile. Sadly we can’t know this without chemical analyses of various types.

I’m going to air out my pouch and see what happens. I imagine the sour will weaken over time but there’s only one way to find out, and I mean to try. Note that this will be a subjective study only; I lack the means and time to do something quantitative and repeatable.

I’m not a practicing chemist though I have most of a doctorate in it and use it daily for my job. I’d never claim to know everything, so I would enjoy reading others thoughts if they have them. Especially if I got something wrong! 😁
Confounder? What kind of research do you do sir? 😀
 
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ChubbyOldHiker

Might Stick Around
Jan 29, 2025
58
144
Kenner, LA
Update:
So my pouch of SWR has been unsealed for about 2 weeks; I did close it by wrapping it back up as it would have sat on the shelf after my first ill-fated bowl from it. With an aluminized bag, but no seal, it was leaking humidity at a slow rate. Yesterday morning I opened it up and set it aside to air out. It was noticeably drier after just 10 or so hours, and the vinegar smell was present but muted, so I packed a bowl and gave it a smoke.

Not as pronounced as before, but definitely still a vinegar taste at the back of my tongue. In general I just swallowed it away. The underlying tobacco flavor wasn’t great but wasn’t terrible. I’m going to continue to let it air out and try another bowl in a few days.

TL;DR: still vinegary after airing out but less so.
 

cosmicfolklore

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 9, 2013
36,461
89,268
Between the Heart of Alabama and Hot Springs NC
I haven't tried SWR in years. This is all very interesting to me, as I have experimented with getting that taste in my own homegrown blends. But, unless I stumble upon some SDWR at the drug store, I am not going out of my way to get any of this. I do see OTC's behind the counter at Walgreens and Publix still.
 
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JimInks

Sultan of Smoke
Aug 31, 2012
70,174
802,934
I haven't tried SWR in years. This is all very interesting to me, as I have experimented with getting that taste in my own homegrown blends. But, unless I stumble upon some SDWR at the drug store, I am not going out of my way to get any of this. I do see OTC's behind the counter at Walgreens and Publix still.
That doesn't happen in North Carolina or at least in my area of the state. I wonder why you can get them at those places, and we can't. I would think they would be more likely to stock the same things, but I guess not.
 

cosmicfolklore

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 9, 2013
36,461
89,268
Between the Heart of Alabama and Hot Springs NC
That doesn't happen in North Carolina or at least in my area of the state. I wonder why you can get them at those places, and we can't. I would think they would be more likely to stock the same things, but I guess not.
I also have a home in Hot Springs, NC and the Ingles in Marshall carries several types of OTC pipe tobaccos.
 
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Pypkė

Part of the Furniture Now
Aug 3, 2024
868
2,266
East of Cleveland, Ohio. USA
Inspired by this thread I smoked more SWR. The vinegar taste was strong. Just drawing off the hot bowl I experienced a warm jet of vinegar taste with the thin smoke. It was tolerable but quite a distraction. I like vinegar so it didn't destroy my smoke completely, but not what I look forward to when settling down for a nice smoke. There's better tobacco out there
 

ChubbyOldHiker

Might Stick Around
Jan 29, 2025
58
144
Kenner, LA
Update: I aired my SWR out for nearly 2 weeks in a cool area with no direct sunlight. I checked it Saturday to find it crispy and crunchy. Still had a slight whiff of vinegar to it, but not as bad as it had been when I began drying it out.

I “packed” a bowl of it in my cob, being careful with my pressure to avoid trying to smoke a bowl of dust. It lit eagerly and actually smoked quite well rather than going up like flash paper.

The first few puffs definitely had a vinegar tinge to them, not unpleasant but like eating a salt and vinegar potato chip. About a quarter of the way through the bowl, all vinegar was gone, just a nice, if dry, mild tobacco note that I could see enjoying again.

I left the pouch open and will try it again soon. If the next smoke is similar or improved, I’ll rehydrate slightly with a few drops of spring water and a Bovar pack and count my hypothesis as supported.
 

ChubbyOldHiker

Might Stick Around
Jan 29, 2025
58
144
Kenner, LA
Update again: Since my last post, I left the pouch open (a little over a week). I went back to it Wednesday and found it about as dry as it had been the last time. Unfortunately, however, the vinegar note was still there, though muted a little bit more. I smoked a bowl of it in my MM CG and the vinegar was present for the first third of the bowl, but not as pronounced as before, and the remainder of the bowl was again mild tobacco flavor.

I think that basically all of the pure vinegar has evaporated by this point, leaving vinegar salts such as sodium acetate (NaOAc), which is nonvolatile. In theory, this will continue to react with moisture in the air as follows:

NaOAc (s) + H2O (g) --> NaOH (s) + HOAc (acetic acid/vinegar)

This reaction will happen at room temperature on its own, as acetate is a weak base, which is why I can still smell vinegar. But it will take a long time. Heat (e.g., during smoking) will likely speed this up.

Note that the reaction above is reversible, so if the acetic acid doesn't evaporate quickly, it will react with the NaOH and form sodium acetate again.

Anyway, the SWR is definitely smokable now. Not as an all day thing as it used to be but definitely once in awhile. I may try to rehydrate it and see if things change but right now, I'm closing up the package and will smoke the rest when the mood strikes.

Of course, I'm ordering a couple pounds of tobacco today, with several blends new to me, so that mood may take awhile to strike...
 
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Skippy Piper

Part of the Furniture Now
Jun 19, 2023
965
11,454
St. Paul, MN
On the plus side, at least there's still Prince Albert? It's not exactly the same as the old Sir Walter Raleigh, but it is a mellow Burley with the mild cocoa note that Sir Walter Raleigh is supposed to have and no vinegar. Unless STG decides to fix Sir Walter Raleigh and return it to the old recipe at some point then Prince Albert is probably the best replacement. puffy
 

woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
14,329
28,448
SE PA USA
I was wondering if this wasn't a processing error of applying too much Calcium Propionate (the calcium salt of propanoic acid). Calcium Propionate (Mycoban) is added to tobacco in minute quantities to suppress fungal growth, and, in sufficient concentration, can smell like vinegar.

Read More Here
 

cosmicfolklore

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 9, 2013
36,461
89,268
Between the Heart of Alabama and Hot Springs NC
I was wondering if this wasn't a processing error of applying too much Calcium Propionate (the calcium salt of propanoic acid). Calcium Propionate (Mycoban) is added to tobacco in minute quantities to suppress fungal growth, and, in sufficient concentration, can smell like vinegar.

Read More Here
Back when I was just starting to blend with my own gown tobacco, I used Calcium Proportionate as an inhibitor. I believe we were talking about this at that point. It's not exactly like vinegar, but similar. I can actually taste it every time I read the words, calcium Proportionate. It's more like something between vinegar and Elmers Glue. Bitter but middle of the tongue creamy... blech.
 
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woodsroad

Lifer
Oct 10, 2013
14,329
28,448
SE PA USA
Back when I was just starting to blend with my own gown tobacco, I used Calcium Proportionate as an inhibitor. I believe we were talking about this at that point. It's not exactly like vinegar, but similar. I can actually taste it every time I read the words, calcium Proportionate. It's more like something between vinegar and Elmers Glue. Bitter but middle of the tongue creamy... blech.
Application only needs to be minute, and I can't taste it.
Better yet, skip the chemicals and just keep the tobacco at or below 65% RH (15% moisture content), and it won't mold.

MORE INFO

PEASE ARTICLE ON MOISTURE
 

cosmicfolklore

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 9, 2013
36,461
89,268
Between the Heart of Alabama and Hot Springs NC
Application only needs to be minute, and I can't taste it.
Better yet, skip the chemicals and just keep the tobacco at or below 65% RH (15% moisture content), and it won't mold.

MORE INFO

PEASE ARTICLE ON MOISTURE
Oh, I remember. We discussed it being microscopic. But, like all chemicals, I dipped my finger in it and tasted... once, that's all it took, and I can still taste it many years later, ha ha.
 
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ChubbyOldHiker

Might Stick Around
Jan 29, 2025
58
144
Kenner, LA
I was wondering if this wasn't a processing error of applying too much Calcium Propionate (the calcium salt of propanoic acid). Calcium Propionate (Mycoban) is added to tobacco in minute quantities to suppress fungal growth, and, in sufficient concentration, can smell like vinegar.

Read More Here
Propionate is very similar to acetate chemically (just has an extra carbon and 2 hydrogens) so there's probably some truth to that. It would definitely taste acidic and vinegar-y, though I doubt it would be the same, much like @cosmicfolklore indicated. I haven't (knowingly) tasted propionate before so I can't say for sure. I can say that the vapors associated with the SWR I have are identical to those I've run into with acetate/acetic acid/vinegar, though.

The propionate idea is interesting, though--it would probably work well as a mold inhibitor, as it is mildly basic/caustic and mold likes acidic environments. Note that acetate would work fairly well too in this manner and would likely be cheaper.
 
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