corporations drug screening for nicotine.

[warren]

aldecaker: If you can prove illegal discrimination and you are terminated because of it, you may never want for money again. It has little to do with personal habits or vices and everything to do with improving the bottom line. It's the money, it is always the money.
Weeding out bad behavior through fiat can be costlier than living with them. However, if certain behavior is adversely impacting the bottom line it is logical to try and remove it.
bigpond: One has the right to pursue happiness. You do not have a right to achieve happiness. One has to go after happiness, not wait for it to be bestowed on them by a benevolent boss or government. The government now determines who has the right to life and liberty, the voting majority happily ceded the power to make such determinations years ago.
atskywalker: Everyone is free to select different employment if dissatisfied with the current job. Circumstances can make that decision a very hard one.
People challenge work place rules and environments all the time. Some win big money, others do not.
What I'm trying to say, clumsily I guess, is that you, only you, are in control of how you live your life. If you wish to engage in a possibly long, drawn out suit to better your life, do so. If you think higher education or more training will make your life better, seek it. If a move to a better environment is daunting, weigh the possible rewards against the risk of sitting pat. Then make a decision you can live with and deal with it.
I also feel the same about those that run around decrying unequal application of rules, laws and such. Life ain't fair. It's a harsh, usually unyielding experience where the victor gets the spoils and writes the history of the conquest, the best prepared are usually the most successful, and ruthlessness is frequently rewarded.
Life isn't supposed to be an easy tour of duty. Life is hard and those that learn from their loses as well as their victories are the ones best equipped to be successful in life and find a bit of happiness. Too many people relate happiness to being free from worry. Ain't gonna happen.
If you are not happy with your job or station in life and are not willing to do anything but bitch about your situation, do it quietly and to yourself. Everyone has problems. If you are seeking a solution I'll gladly help, if you have a reasonable solution I'll gladly listen. If all you wish to do is bemoan loudly about your situation, I do not want to hear about it. Ive got my own problems.
I have little respect for the hand wringing, woe is me, my life sucks but, I'm not going to do anything to improve it personality. It's too hard! I have no time for such people. If you aren't willing to take a risk, make an uncomfortable decision, or anything else to improve your lot in life, I'll simply write you off as a lost soul, unwilling to help yourself, willing only to accept your lot and bitch loudly about it. I'll move on to someone with the initiative and desire to change their circumstances and do all I can to assist them.
As far as the intent of the OP, hell that ship sailed hours ago. One can't even see it on the horizon any longer.

 

[perdurabo]

However,it is in the first line of the Us Constitution

Sorry buddy, Nothing in the US Constitution says you have a right to another mans property. Sorry it ain't there. That other man's property also includes his business. You have a right to moral risk, this whole concept is in the clause "that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". It bugs me that so many have such a crass idea about private property and business. If you don't like another man's policy, then Go work for someone else. Bigpond we just agree to disagree on this, no hard feelings.

 

[perdurabo]

I never said I agree with a business not hiring you because you smoke. That would be a bad business choice, but that business has a right to not hire you for whatever reason. Discrimination because of your color, religion, or creed would be against the law.

 

[sajgre]

In my country it is strictly forbidden to collect any personal data and so we strongly believe that employers only concern should be employees capability to perform a certain job. For instance if one needs to be alert to do their job, employer could only "test" alertness and has absolutely no right to put in a contract how one should achieve that. I might have insomnia, 6 children that keep me awake all night and be a passionate astronomer but that is not employers business. Employers only right is to demand that I'm alert when I'm on my job.

I don't understand where the line could be drawn other than ones personal space is his only? Why not make a contract that demands certain race, religion and sexual orientation?

 

[sajgre]

perdurabo, I didn't saw your last post when I was typing.

My point is that just as "Discrimination because of your color, religion, or creed would be against the law" it is agains the law to collect any personal data... at least here in Slo.

 

[perdurabo]

Sajgre, It's not collecting personal data to drug test, in the US. The US is the only country in the world where private property is essential to liberty. Our liberty is crumbling though, fast! We now live in a soft tyranny that is perpetrated by a two party system that is really a one party oligarchy. It will take more than a ballot box to fix this unfortunately. A man has a right to his own labor and if he works for another man, it's on the other man's terms. That is Liberty, take it or leave, don't confuse it.

 

[dutch65]

Ok, so the "statistics" show that 3.4 million people pre year die from obesity, and that 6 million a year die from smoking.
My question is, if the nicotine needs to be controlled by the insurance companies, then why not the calories?
I find it hard to believe a guy as fat as I, is as healthy and productive as a guy who weighs a buck twenty five.
What about the 40,000 plus automobile deaths each year, and how it's still ok to text yourself right into a casket while multi-tasking behind the wheel. When was the last time you heard someone suggest the outlawing of automobiles or commercial trucks to save lives? At the very minimum, we all know that the technology is there to completely prevent cell phone use while driving.
I suppose we really need that freight delivered, so 40,000 deaths per year is a fair trade, and an acceptable loss.
Bottom line is, the users of tobacco are an easy target for big insurance companies, with minimal loss to their revenues.
Then you've got the liberal socialist do gooders, who always know what's best for everyone else, cheering them on.

 

[prairiedruid]

Cut down on drunk driving.....outlaw automatic transmissions!

 

[perdurabo]

dutch64 how about outlaw medical insurance, make Doctors compete against each other. That means outlawing unions so doctors can't go into associations with each other, which would eliminate fixing prices because they refuse to compete. Why do we accept this way of business transactions for veterinarians, but have this crazy idea of entitlement for health care? Every thing was fine when we just carried major medical insurance. This would get the Feds out of the doctors exam rooms. It was mentioned above that corporations in other contries are not allowed to collect data, but under the socialist healthcare in those countries they collect all the personnel data you can imagine.

 

[blackbeard]

6 million a year in smoking "related" deaths. A lazy overweight guy in poor health says he smokes at the doctor started two weeks ago. Next week he has a hear attack and dies. What killed him? Smoking of course. ANYWAYS. Bottom line is, it's dissapointing but the right of the buisness owner. No different than not hiring the guy with a beard; then hiring the clean shaven guy to be your chef. You can always deny the tests, seek employment elsewhere, hide it, or sit back and complain.

 

[warren]

Life is what it is and railing about a situation you have no control over is simply a waste of effort and breath. Unless your friends find your discomfort amusing and will keep buying drinks, as they pull your chain, so as to keep you wound up for their entertainment. Much better to dispassionately and logically assess the situation to figure out how to use it to your advantage.
I'm a real fan of pragmatism. It keeps the blood pressure down and allows for logical assessment. Finding advantage in an otherwise bad situation, as everyone else runs in tiny circles bemoaning the current state of affairs, often puts you in a plum position to make a few bucks, acquire a new house or pipe, add to your portfolio or cellar, etc. The old "tis an ill wind . . . . " adage carries more than a bit of truth.

 

[deathmetal]

Slightly off-topic, but the nexus between these is fascinating:

It will take more than a ballot box to fix this unfortunately.

and

I'm a real fan of pragmatism.

I am a realist. It means generally pragmatist in practice, but aware that bad consequences left unchecked will eventually impact everyone, so it's best to motivate against them.
What we're seeing in the modern West is a slow devolution into total conformity. As part of this, they target outliers and blame them for the ills of society. The crusade against rock music in the 1980s was part of it, the 1990s rage against illegal drugs, and the 2010s anti-smoking and anti-bacon (LOL) crusades.
Ideology always runs this way. When it fails, make it more extreme. Maybe that will work.

 

[perdurabo]

I'm a real fan of pragmatism

Pragmatism is extremely dangerous. The birth of the Fed Reserve is a great example of this. Pragmatic men joined together to create a cartel to destroy competition, having no allegiance to the U.S., and therefore creating a monster that now controls the currency (debt) of the world. How's that for pragmatism?

 

[warren]

A pragmatic person looks at it, assays the effects and tries to figure where the profit lies. That's my response. I could simply rail about it, to little or no effect, or profit from it. It is what it is, so where is the value to me and mine? I do I turn the event into a plus? That's the pragmatic response.

 

[gloucesterman]

Exactly, It is what it is, how do I make that work for me? Wishing it were different doesn't make it so and more importantly fail to adapt and you're the next dinosaur.

 

[perdurabo]

Warren I should have said "can be" extremely dangerous.

 

[warren]

Pragmatism allows for a considered response. Emotional reaction is usually not beneficial, merely a vent. Venting can be healthy if kept in check, recognized for what it is, usually a negative, and quickly shunted aside as emotion easily gets in the way of rational thinking.
Taxes a problem? Look for the upside and exploit it.
Government a sticking point? See what it's doing to the economy and look for bargains which will grow with a change in leadership or circumstance.
Feel the country is going down hill? Sell sleds and toboggans.
Just find a way to keep a roof over the family's head. A pundit and get paid for voicing opinion. Do not give it away free. Write about the ills of the world and earn money while opining. Just figure out a way to profit from your anger and disappointment.
I can react emotionally, often do. I just work to rein it in quickly so it's not a determent to my health or family. If I feel strongly about something, I try to find a correction and work for that. I do donate to lobbyists, PACS and candidates. Rarely over the limit which requires my name to be published. Whales only get harpooned when they surface to spout. That's pragmatic, right? I don't want recognition, I want access and information.

 

[gloucesterman]

There are sometimes forces at work that are bigger than the individual, the state or even the nation. Man's allegiance has changed over time from the family to the tribe to city/state and to the nation while still retaining the former . Those who objected to the changes couldn't stop them no matter how they felt. The pragmatist uses logic, practical solutions and committed implementation to adapt to the real situation as he/she understands it. Change is part of the human experience. If it weren't we would all still be living in caves. Life's challenge, Adapt, improvise, overcome. Bitching about it is a distraction from the real task, survive and prosper. Your family's future depends on it. Bitching might be good for the soul but it doesn't contribute much to overcoming the challenge you face.

 

[atskywalker]

There are fine lines between pragmatism, apathy, and opportunism. I shall not/cannot claim to know anyone's exact definition of pragmatism because one man's pragmatism is another's exploitation neither am I interested in judging its merit. For example, arms dealers could be considered very pragmatic people :D

 

[gloucesterman]

I suppose you can split hairs on just about anything but the point is that what you feel and what you have to do isn't always the same. Some devise a strategy that mitigates the adverse impacts, others just complain about it. For me there isn't much uncertainty. Pragmatism is to be logical, practical and solutions oriented. Apathy is not to care and opportunism is to take advantage of what a situation might offer. In my opinion opportunistic behavior is it only objectionable when and if it comes at the unfair expense of others. Gun dealers have their perspective and yours or mine is only valid to ourselves, others are not bound by it. Our individual judgements do not have the force of law so they relegated to the status of opinion and just about everyone has one or several of those.