Burley Highest TSNA Concentrations

[PipeIT]

@Hillcrest recently mentioned having allergic reactions to Burley. This isn’t to put him in the spotlight, but to only allow him, if he wishes, to share on something I was never aware of, and others might not be too.

And that’s Burly, supposedly has the highest TSNA Concentrations.

Tobacco-specific nitrosamines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This was not an area I’d ever seen, or heard discussions on before regarding this, and Burley’s higher nitrate count.

So I thought this is seriously good information for those finding themselves having reactions in various ways in regards to this leaf variety.

If you know of any other good information on this topic, please share, and your experiences too. As we all know, many of us do find sensitivity to various leaf varieties, in various ways…

I found this government article, but it’s in reference to cigarettes.

Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another factor contributing to nitrosamine concentrations in tobacco is the type of tobacco used (Johnson and Rhoades 1972; Brunnemann et al. 1983; Fischer et al. 1989b,c). Oriental tobaccos are lowest in both nitrates and TSNAs (Fischer et al. 1989b), whereas burley tobacco contains the highest TSNA concentrations

This article points out Burley having higher Nitrogen levels.

2. What goes into tobacco products?

ec.europa.eu

Virginia tobacco leaves contain a higher carbohydrate (e.g. sugars) level and lower nitrogen level than Burley leaves.

Here’s some interesting PH Info from that article too;

Burley tobacco produces a more alkaline smoke than flue-cured tobacco

This article states Nitrate Levels 10s to hundreds times higher in Burley.

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onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Nitrate is present at concentrations tens to hundreds of times higher in burley tobacco than in flue-cured tobacco, with the reasons for this accumulation unclear.

Many factors such as nitrogen management, soil fertility, tobacco types and varieties, and cultivation conditions are related to nitrate accumulation.

P.S. Please be aware, this post isn’t about politics or conspiracy. I only posted, in hopes we can all share information on Burley, or other leaf variety, by the makeup and processes, how some of these might create blends that people can’t tolerate for various reasons, to help us, on our journeys for more enjoyable smokes is all.

 

[PipeIT]

@Hillcrest now I definitely wasn’t expecting that! LOL

Seriously though, bringing up nitrates is excellent. You should feel good, that you have insight on something to help others, that’s all.

Thanks for bringing this up before, it seriously made me reconsider Burley. Because just a few weeks ago, I was seriously getting my throat choked up so bad, like an allergic reaction, I was having an extremely difficult time swallowing, and a little breathing difficulty.

It makes me realize more than ever, especially for people with allergies, or even if they don’t have them, could certain blends trigger really bad serious reactions. All I know is it did for me…

Thanks for sharing before!

 

[Hillcrest]

I wish I could find the specific scientific article that said 200% to 1200% higher concentrations of nitrate but alas it is the internet ... here today gone tomorrow. Like you, (good thing or bad thing ??? ) I wanted to know why I was getting a chemical burn and became obsessed for a few hours. There are other discussion threads herein that discuss various allergic reactions members have had to various plants.
Bottom line for me ... there is more burley available for those who like it as they can have my lion's share !



P.S. Research can be dangerous here as your bound to find a few naysayers ... as in any forum.

 

[PipeIT]

Besides the nitrates, if you are talking about chemical burn, there are other discussions on this in relation to PH Balance.

The last post I made at this article on Bite, I found a wealth of good information, also from leading pipe professionals.

Any Advice? Killer Tongue Bite :: Pipe Smoking Basics & Beginner Questions

Roll up your driver's window but leave a just crack for ventilation. If you're filling up the cabin with smoke you're puffing too fast anyway but the draft from highway driving can be like a supercharger for a pipe

pipesmagazine.com

There are certainly a lot of things when it comes to tobacco, that can create irritations in many ways…

 

[Hillcrest]

There are certainly a lot of things when it comes to tobacco, that can create irritations in many ways…

Especially price and taxes !!!

 

[Auxsender]

Interesting.
I recently got my hands on some old (2008) PS Cube Cut and I was very keen to enjoy a bowl. Sadly, it gave me some pretty mean bite and I couldn’t taste pipe tobacco smoke for 3 days.
Perhaps it’s to do with nitrates in burley. I seldom smoke burley blends.
I will say that WCC American Cut Plug is just phenomenal and doesn’t irritate my mouth in any way.
Who the hell knows.

 

[Hillcrest]

For the record and as a plug, I spoke to Jon David at Country Squire and he offered to mix up any blend for me sans Burley or make substitutions which was extremely kind and professional of him.

 

[Hillcrest]

Who the hell knows.

Stayed tuned and we'll get to the bottom of it !!

 

[Hillcrest]

I also find Red virginia and flue cured virginia if not dried thoroughly a bit irritating and too acidic. Also Sutliff Sweet virginia can be hot and burn if not cut with something else like Lane 1-Q... maybe its the topping maybe its the blend of virginias. I tend to stick to Sutliff 507-C to avoid heat and bite. Whether any of these have nitrates also I do not know.

On a side note I have a fairly well developed sense of taste and smell. Maybe its just genetics. Some people can tolerate anything and I am sometimes jealous. But I always check TR.com for burley content before buying anything.

 

[PipeIT]

PH Balance seems to play a big part in irritability.

I’ve been going on in the past about the alkaline state of VAs, while it’s suppose to be their lack of, and are suppose to be more acidic.

Here’s Mac Baren with some mention on PH between Burley and Virginia.

burley tobacco | Mac Baren Tobacco Company

mac-baren.com

The most important property of Burley tobacco is its ability to reduce the often sharp taste of Virginia tobaccos. The pH value of Burley is around 7 which means that it is more or less neutral, whereas Virginia tobacco has a pH value of about 5 which means that it is acidic. So the Burley can soften the impression of a sharp Virginia tobacco and make the smoke more rounder and appealing.

A lot of professionals believe the PH differences between VAs and Burley, are reasons for tongue bite and mouth irritation, besides other things in tobacco, and the by products of smoke.

 

[Hillcrest]

PH Balance seems to play a big part in irritability.

I’ve been going on in the past about the alkaline state of VAs, while it’s suppose to be their lack of, and are suppose to be more acidic.

Here’s Mac Baren with some mention on PH between Burley and Virginia.

burley tobacco | Mac Baren Tobacco Company

mac-baren.com

The most important property of Burley tobacco is its ability to reduce the often sharp taste of Virginia tobaccos. The pH value of Burley is around 7 which means that it is more or less neutral, whereas Virginia tobacco has a pH value of about 5 which means that it is acidic. So the Burley can soften the impression of a sharp Virginia tobacco and make the smoke more rounder and appealing.

A lot of professionals believe the PH differences between VAs and Burley, are reasons for tongue bite and mouth irritation, besides other things in tobacco, and the by products of smoke.

But it doesn't 'do magic' for my smoking experience ... I need less than 10% of Burley in the blend or I have to give it away. I have said before I love the taste and see what others like but sadly its not for me.

 

[PipeIT]

Greg Pease mentions this on his site;

G. L. Pease - Some Frequently Asked Questions

High sugar virginias “bite”

I can't count the number of times I've read this. For some reason, it's commonly believed that the more sugar in the leaf, the more “bite” the smoker will experience. While it's true that some tobaccos with a lot of sweetness do tend to irritate the smoker, it's not the sugar content that's responsible.

Tongue “bite” is a response to smoke with a higher pH (more alkaline) than the mouth and tongue are used to. Some tobaccos, notably burleys, contain a high percentage of nitrogenous compounds, and produce a more alkaline smoke. The dreaded “burley curse” often results. Tobacco producers will work to mitigate this by adding sugars to the casing sauces. Sugars, when burned, actually acidify the smoke, resulting in less“bite.” Virginia tobaccos are often blended with burleys to perform the same function.

Body chemistry also seems to play a significant role. The same tobaccos that will cause one person significant distress can be a source of bliss to another. And, our mouth's environmental factors change over time, and react to things like what we eat and what we drink. Unfortunately, it's not simple. I've never known a tobacco that "never bit" 100% of the people 100% of the time.

And, worse, we have to add the pipe into the equation. I've actually had pipes that would turn the most mild-mannered tobaccos into flamethower fuel. Tobaccos that are reliably comfortable for me have been rendered into pain-inducing tinder. Add differences in smoking technique, and the complexity of the system is magnified to the point of intractibility. But, it's not the sugar in Virginias that cause the bite.

This leads to questions about casing and sauces...

 

[Grangerous]

I love burley. Here’s something I found interesting. I found an old, dry pouch of Half n Half and it bit me so I tossed it. - I used to enjoy this blend and had never been bitten. Ever.

I find Granger to be the most easy smoking blend on the planet. I can practically breathe it. - If the planets atmosphere was Granger, I’d thrive.

Now, the interesting part. - Many on this forum swear that Granger Must Be Dried - Crispy. To be enjoyed. @ashdigger for one.

I’ve always said, “No way! It’s perfect from the tin!” And it is.

Many on this forum say that Granger is a tasty mouthful of wasps.

Guess what?

I dried some crispy by laying some out on a paper towel on a sunny dashboard. IT BIT ME!

I cannot smoke Granger Dry.

Last point. If you’ll read @JimInks review of Granger, he specifically recommends moistening a bit it to avoid tongue bite.
Moistening to avoid bite.

Mic Drop.

 

[Hillcrest]

I find Granger to be the most easy smoking blend on the planet.

There are many tobaccos I want to try bt if they have Burley I don't try them ... Granger is one of them unfortunately and I know you rave about it so enjoy a bowl for me preferably in a bent pipe outside in nature !!! Thanks !

 

[buroak]

As a former dipper, I am familiar with nitrosamines in terms of discussions purely about cancer risk. American mouth tobaccos are notoriously high in TSNAs. I switched to Swedish snus mainly for that reason. It could also be had in very potent varieties.

I am not sure how TSNAs would be a source of tongue-bite or allergic reactions. My chemistry background is limited and what I once knew is mostly lost to the mists of time. That said, alkyl and alkaline aren’t the same thing. If I am wrong, I hope someone will set me straight.

 

[PipeIT]

@Grangerous I read some where Greg Pease also mentioning a little more moisture too is better.

Tobacco moisture certainly plays a part, as to what works better. Some blends do better dryer, some moister.

 

[Strange Quark]

I wouldn't be surprised if the TSNAs in these highly processed OTC and domestic bulk burley blends are much lower than the documentation suggests. Ever notice the nicotine is negligible? Nicotine is water soluble and is likely leached out during that high moisture processing. I looked up TSNAs are likewise water soluble. I've looked up this sort of information going back many years. And from what I can remember cigar leaf was far worse than burley. The worst of all was Indian dark air cured. But this info is likely out of date.

ps
I shy away from vulcanite stems. There was that old adage of pipe smokers getting lip cancer. I looked up and confirmed vulcanized rubber contains nitrosamines.

 

[makhorkasmoker]

I do not doubt that burley irritates some people's mouths, and pH and even nitrate levels may have something to do with it. But my personal experience leads me to believe the problem may be not the burley itself but what's typically done to it by the blenders.

I went through a period when I thought burley bothered me. Then, one day, while experimenting with straight blenders--C&D's dark burley and their white burley--I realized that these did not. According to C&D, both of these tobaccos are relatively unadulterated. No casings. No toppings. And they are straight--unblended with other tobaccos. I then began smoking whole leaf Kentucky burley and burley red tips. I can also smoke these with minimal irritation.

If you look at most commercial burley based pipe tobacco, you'll see that it's usually toasted, cased, topped, pg'd, among other things. Even something like Five Brothers, which many seem to consider a pure burley, has a noticeable top note for me. When the burley is left alone, as in many of C&D's blends, it is still usually mixed with perique, virginias, latakia, and other tobaccos.

For me it was what was being done to the burley, and how it was blended with other tobaccos, that created the problems. It was only when I got away from the usual blends that I could really begin to enjoy burley.

 

[Hillcrest]

Whether or not it is a proper 'allergic reaction' or 'allergy', I suppose is debatable. Another poster in an allergy thread said his Doctor told him they cannot test for specific tobaccos to determine allergy. Its trial and error on the smoker's part. When I say I have a reaction to burley I mean severe whole mouth tongue bite and burn, swelling, congestion, etc. from the first puff like a chemical burn. I determined it was burley by trial and error and eliminating that tobacco.
Does anyone else have, for lack of a better term, "an allergic like reaction' to other tobaccos ?
We know Virginias are acidic and can burn hot if not slow-sipped but are there any others ?
Or topping that causes a 'bad' (?) reaction ?

I know I have had reactions to some common medications as well as have had to be proscribed alternatives. Maybe its just genetics as I said. everyone is different.

 

[PipeIT]

Information I found online, supposedly was stated by Greg Pease, which is the last post made on the forum over Bite.

Any Advice? Killer Tongue Bite :: Pipe Smoking Basics & Beginner Questions

Roll up your driver's window but leave a just crack for ventilation. If you're filling up the cabin with smoke you're puffing too fast anyway but the draft from highway driving can be like a supercharger for a pipe

pipesmagazine.com

• Burley and Virginias have a similar pH of 5.4 to 5.8 (although Virginias have significantly more sugar in the form of dextrose, about 0.2% for Burleys and approximately 22% for bright Virginia).
• Turkish is somewhat more acidic, generally about pH 4.9, while containing only about 12% sugar.
• The alkalinity of the water soluble ash from Burley, however, is 2-3 times that of Virginia.